the winner, by a nose

[George]

A topic which pops up repeatedly is the effective range of colonial rifles. We'll probably never know for sure, but I'm always pleased to find what seem reliable references to events in the day which might shed some light. Consider these two concerning one event. This is right after the beginning of the Rev. war, Boston still under siege...

THE VIRGINIA GAZETTE 3
July 21, 1775
PHILADELPHIA, July11. A CORRESPONDENT informs us that one of the gentlemen appointed to command a company of rifle-men, to be raised in one of our frontier counties, had so many applications from the people in his neighbourhood, to be enrolled for the service, that a greater number presented than his instructions permitted him to engage, and being unwilling to give offence to any, thought of the following expedient, viz. He, with a piece of a chalk , drew on a board the figure of a nose of the common size, which he placed at the distance of one hundred and fifty yards, declaring that those who should come nearest the mark should be enlisted, when sixty odd hit the object.””[General Gage, take care of your nose]

And a different take on the same event, apparently, quoted in _Rebels and Redcoats: The American Revolution through the Eyes of Those Who Fought and Lived It_, 1957, George F. Scheer and Hugh F. Rankin:

The riflemen were called up by the Congress from the frontiers of Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Virginia. Down on the Rappahannock River in Virginia, John Harrower, an indentured servant teaching a plantation school, watched a rifle captain choose his company. The number of volunteers far exceeded the number of men called for, so to avoid offending the men, the captain set up a competition: “He took a board of a foot square and with chalk drew the shape of a moderate nose in the center and nailed it up to a tree at one hundred and fifty yards distance, and those who came nighest the mark with a single ball was to go. By the first forty or fifty that fired, the nose was all blown out of the board, and by the time his company was up, the board shared the same fate.”

You could conclude a foot-square target, offhand at 150 yards wasn't much of a challenge for the old boys.

Spence

 

[azmntman]

Amazing! And we was hidin behind rocks n trees n things too, shooting a red targets in a straight line!

 

[gwalker]

Spence,

I don't see any reference to off-hand shooting in either author's telling of the event. In Harriet Simpson Arnow's book, Seed Time on the Cumberland, she says that shooting using a rest was the general rule during the mid-1700s through the Revolutionary War and after, and that shooting off-hand was the exception. In all likelihood, the contest you mention was shot using a rest and it is still a remarkable feat for so many to have 'qualified' so well. Thank you for sharing this with us.

George

 

[George]

You may be right, George, I may have made an unwarranted assumption, they certainly don't indicate offhand shooting. I have usually found that to be the case, they just don't say. My reading leads me to believe, though, that shooting offhand was common in many situations. My own experience supports that feeling, because I've made the shot they describe, offhand, and it's not as tough as it seems on first consideration.

Thanks for the reference to Arnow, excellent book, but it has been years since I read it. Can you please direct me to that discussion and save me a lot of skimming? :grin:

Spence

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

Excellent story and information about the nose. :thumbsup:

 

[BrownBear]

This really speaks to me about something that must have been happening before the shoot-off. I'm betting those guys did a fair bit of "load development" for their individual rifles. Yet we never hear much or anything about their efforts to refine a load. That would be an interesting read, for sure.

 

[Turtle Creek]

Neat story line....post it in the smoothbore section in their accuracy post lol.

 

[George]

I'm betting those guys did a fair bit of "load development" for their individual rifles. Yet we never hear much or anything about their efforts to refine a load.

Yeah, a description of that would be cool to find. I've never run across anything concerning it in the 18th century. When you read reports like this, though, there can be no doubt the shooters were using well proven loads.

Pennsylvania Gazette
August 16, 1775

Aug. 1, 1775, extract of a letter from Fredrick Town, Maryland, describing Michael Cresap's company of 130 riflemen:

"Yesterday the Company were supplied with a small Quantity of Powder from the Magazine, which wanted airing, and was not in good Order for Rifles ; in the Evening, however, they were drawn out, to shew the Gentlemen of the Town their Dexterity in shooting; a Clapboard with a Mark the Size of a Dollar, was put up; they began to fire off hand, and the Bystanders were surprized, few Shot being made that were not close to or in the Paper; when they shot for a Time in this Way, some lay on their Backs, some on their Breast or Side, others ran 20 or 30 Steps and firing, appeared to be equally certain of their Mark - With this Performance the Company were more than satisfied, when a young Man took up the Board in his Hand, not by the End but the Side, and holding it up, his Brother walked to the Distance and very coolly shot into the white; laying down his Rifle , he took the Board, and holding it as it was held before, the second Brother shot as the former had done. - By this exercise I was more astonished then pleased. But will you believe me when I tell you that one of the Men took the Board and placing it between his Legs, stood with his Back to the Tree, while another drove the Center."

Isaac Weld, 1795-7 "Two men belonging to the Virginia rifle regiment, a large division of which was quartered in this town during the war, had such a dependance on each other’s dexterity, that the one would hold a piece of board, not more than nine inches square, between his knees, whilst the other shot at it with a ball at the distance of one hundred paces. This they used to do alternately, as often as they were called upon. Numbers of people in Lancaster can vouch for the truth of this fact. Were I, however, to tell you all the stories I have heard of the performances of riflemen, you would think the people were most abominably addicted to lying."

And we are still suspicious. :haha:

Spence

 

[pab1]

Back in December 2010 the "nose target" was Jethro224s inspiration for the members shooting contest on this site. It was called the Nose Piercing contest.

In A Narrative of a Revolutionary Soldier, Joseph Plumb Martin wrote about a long shot made by one of their men. A British soldier had been firing shots at the men Plumb was with, but was so far away that they didn't consider him to be a threat. Finally one of the men asked an officer for permission to discharge his piece at him. The officer gave him permission. Here is Plumbs account of the shot.

"He rested his old six feet barrel across a fence and sent an express to him. The man dropped, but as we then thought it was only to amuse us, we took no further notice of it but passed on. In the morning, upon our return, we saw the brick coloured coat still lying in the same position we had left it in the evening before: it was a long distance to hit a single man with a musket, it was certainly over half a mile."

 

[nchawkeye]

I suspect we do much more load development than they did...First, they knew what worked, and used what they had...Second, a true round ball barrel is very forgiving...Third, those that could afford a rifle were most likely hunters and without refrigeration those guns were used every week, throughout the year....

 

[BrownBear]

Yeah, a description of that would be cool to find. I've never run across anything concerning it in the 18th century. When you read reports like this, though, there can be no doubt the shooters were using well proven loads.

It kinda makes me wonder if the smith had a hand in it, at least in cases where rifles were made by individuals rather than mass produced. I don't read anything about "sighting in" new rifles either, so perhaps the smith did that too, along with providing a powder measure and ball mold with the rifle.

Today we read lots of reco's to new owners for "ignoring POI while firing for group, then adjust the sights for POI," or some such. I can't recall anything along those lines in historic accounts.

 

[nchawkeye]

Another fairly common quote, by British Colonel George Hanger, considered an expert on firearms during this period...After the War he wrote a book on firearms...

"Colonel, now General Tarleton, and myself, were standing a few yards out of a wood, observing the situation of a part of the enemy which we intended to attack. There was a rivulet in the enemy's front, and a mill on it, to which we stood directly with our horses' heads fronting, observing their motions. It was an absolute plain field between us and the mill; not so much as a single bush on it. Our orderly-bugler stood behind us, about three yards, but with his horse's side to our horse's tails. A rifleman passed over the mill-dam, evidently observing two officers, and laid himself down on his belly; for, in such positions, they always lie, to take a good shot at long distance. He took a deliberate and cool shot at my friend, at me, and the bugle-horn man. (I have passed several times over this ground, and ever observed it with the greatest attention; and I can positively assert that the distance he fired from, at us, was full four hundred yards.) Now, observe how well this fellow shot. It was in the month of August, and not a breath of wind was stirring. Colonel Tarleton's horse and mine, I am certain, were not any thing like two feet apart; for we were in close consultation, how we should attack with our troops, which laid 300 yards in the wood, and could not be perceived by the enemy. A rifle-ball passed between him and me: looking directly to the mill, I evidently observed the flash of powder. I directly said to my friend, "I think we had better move, or we shall have two or three of these gentlemen, shortly, amusing themselves at our expense." The words were hardly out of my mouth, when the bugle-horn man, behind us, and directly central, jumped off his horse, and said, "Sir, my horse is shot." The horse staggered, fell down, and died. He was shot directly behind the fore-leg, near to the heart, at least where the great blood-vessels lie, which lead to the heart. He took the saddle and bridle off, went into the wood, and got another horse."

 

[George]

I have almost no references to sighting in a gun, and certainly not the details. In Running Mad for Kentucky, Ellen Eslinger quotes from the journal of Johm May, in Pittsburg waiting for the river to rise:

"Sunday, May 17th, 1788”¦. This afternoon I proved my [new] rifle gun----fir’d her 4 times and made excellent shot. 3 times out of 4 I put the ball within 2 inches of the spot which was the bigness of a dollar”¦."

And as for accounts of accurate shooting at distance, this is one of my favorites:

"The Massachusetts Spy
February 23, 1853

A Sharp Shooter - The Harrodsburg Ky. Ploughboy gives us an idea, in the following, of what is called a Kentucky sharp shooter; Mr A. J. Bass, a young man, engaged in the establishment of B. Mills, the celebrated gunsmith of this place, killed five turkies in seven shots, a few days since, at a distance of 325 yards. The gun was one of Mills' rifles, and the young man shot without a rest."

He apparently learned from a master, Benjamin Mills, described in action in this account from 7 years earlier:

"The Columbia (PA) Democrat
April 11, 1846:

"A Mr. A. B. Mills a gunsmith of Harrodsburg, KY with a rifle of his own make running 100 balls to the pound lately made 10 shots at a target 14 by 10 inches and hit 8 times out of 10 at a distance of 400 yards."

Just a point of interest, note that they are still using the term "balls to the pound" in 1846. His rifle was a .36.

Too bad they didn't understand we would like more details in their accounts.

Spence

 

[Rifleman1776]

I have read so many versions of that and other tests I have come to the conclusion.....drum roll please :shocked2: .....none of them are true.
Gimme a break, how many people could even see a tiny drawing made with chalk on a board at 150 yards? Answer: none.
Good stories but that is all. I revere the rifleman and his skills but we need to, at least, try to stick with reality.

 

[Patocazador]

If you saw the nose drawn, you would know where on the board to aim. After cataract surgery I can see 150 yards fairly easily and I'm just a bit younger than you.

 

[Rifleman1776]

If you saw the nose drawn, you would know where on the board to aim

Same with targets like the nitemare. But that kind of shooting would easily beat today's best champions hands down. It would even beat the best of the best bench rest shooters. Stories, just good stories but still fantasy.

 

[galamb]

I don't doubt that there were guys back when, just like today that could hit such a target.

I spent over 20 years in the military and there certainly was some guys that could get a very tight group with a pistol at 25 yards, these were usually our "full time" military police officers who spent a lot of time at the range spending "someone else's money on supplies" and "getting paid" to be there - I was lucky to put the required 6 of 10 shots "somewhere" on a man sized target as part of my annual familiarization.

Accounts of either military/quasi-military or those aspiring to be such "back when" may not be indicative at all of "the average shooter".

Just like today, there is not many of us that could go toe to toe with a special forces sniper, even with a scoped CF rifle of our choosing.

So perhaps in 200 years someone will read an account of those couple of confirmed 1000 yard shots taken in "sandy locations" and take that as "the standard ability" of a rifle man in the early days of the 21st century....

 

[George]

How about this version, and everybody who hits the door gets to go? :grin:

Detail of an illustration by Gayle Hoskins in 1948, featured on the front and back covers of the first edition of the Lyman Muzzleloaders' Handbook, 1976:



Spence

 

[Artificer]

If you saw the nose drawn, you would know where on the board to aim

Same with targets like the nitemare. But that kind of shooting would easily beat today's best champions hands down. It would even beat the best of the best bench rest shooters. Stories, just good stories but still fantasy.

The story of the "over the half mile shot" is most likely a mistaken impression of the true distance, or just pure Bovine Bowel Bulbs.

The gunsmith hitting 8 out of 10 shots at 400 yards is possible, but ONLY because he was doing it from a rest and MORE IMPORTANTLY, knew EXACTLY where to aim over the target to hit the target that many times. I would not doubt he was actually aiming at a rock uphill of the target or at higher up a tree behind the target. It is impossible to hit that many times at that distance without a precise aiming point and not just up in the sky because of the DROP of the ball at that distance.

The biggest problem with long range shooting in the 18th century was they did not have precise enough sights, for all but a very small percentage of very specialized target rifles that "hunters" and "frontiersman" just did not use. With Creedmore style adjustable sights mounted to a "Hunter's" or "Frontiersman's" style Long Rifle, I have seen people shoot quite well at 500 yard targets FROM A REST or from prone or reverse prone - but those were extremely good shots and they used much tighter fitting ball/patch combinations than 18th Century Riflemen used.

More to come on the Colonel Hanger story.
Gus

 

[bpd303]

I have always loved that cover, especially the guy in the LH lower corner, adjusting the flint on his over/under rifle. It's also the cover on The Gunman's Mart, Brownell Industries Inc, Volume III 1951 which I have in my library and my first catalog.
One thing I wouldn't do is bet against someone who used his/her rifle on a daily basis to put food on the table.