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We have written, eye witness accounts of some of the shots that they made and yet some question...Of course, some question stories in the Bible as well...

Nobody says they made every shot, dead center but evidently they did connect enough for it to be recorded and they did impress the British enough that they sent some of these riflemen with their rifles to England...Some of the best preserved specimens are in the Tower of London where they have resided since the American Revolution...

The shot supposedly made by Timothy Murphy was a pretty good one as well, supposedly it took him 3 shots to hit Fraser and he shot him in the guts...I guess he didn't quite figure the drop correctly...

Did he make the shot??? Was it 300 yards???

I don't know but I do know that it helped swing the tide and the Battle of Saratoga was probably the most important victory in the American Revolution...

So, every once in a while the American Long Rifle lived up to it's billing... :bow:
 
Not sure what you mean by bringing the Bible into the discussion, but I will leave that alone.

"Eye Witness Accounts" on the shot made by Tim Murphy do not agree. Some state he was the only one shooting while other accounts say there from 2 to 5 other people also shooting. The "Eye Witness Accounts' also do not agree about the distance at which the shot was made. Some say the distance was 300 yards, while other accounts say it was 1/4 mile (440 yards) OR MORE. Some accounts absolutely state Timothy was the one who made the shot, while other accounts say he was "one of" the people whose shot it could have been or even he was the most likely one it was who made the shot. The "Eye Witness Accounts" also do not agree on how many shots Timothy fired. So, which "Eye Witness Account" do we believe from what we know and can replicate on the accuracy of the Longrifle to see if he could have made the shot?

If we take the accounts that state there were at least one or two others in the same tree with Timothy, then the story is believable at 300 yards, considering how good of a shot Timothy was reported to have been along with other factors. The (at least) one or two other Rifleman were most likely to almost certainly "spotting" for Timothy and each other in between shots.

Now, "spotting" is a modern term in sniping that speaks to the job of the second man in a two man sniper team. A very important part of the "spotter's job" is to "mark" where a missed shot hit the ground so the shooter can adjust his aim to hit the target. Even if that were not true, the fact Timothy WAS up in a tree gave him the ability to "mark" where his own shots missed because he may or probably saw them kick up dirt - because he was up in the tree where he could see where the missed shots landed. (If one is on the ground at that range with the smoke of the enemy formation in the air, it is extremely difficult to downright impossible to see where missed shots landed and be able to adjust one's point of aim.)

WITH at least one other person "spotting" for Timothy and if he did indeed take two shots that missed before he hit Fraser with the third shot, THEN the story does become not only possible, but entirely believable. Oh, and a shot in the guts of an enemy when shooting a Longrifle at 300 yards in combat conditions, would have been considered “X Ring” Accuracy for the technology of the day.

Now, no matter if Timothy Murphy was the one who made the shot or if it was from the 1 to 4 other Rifleman with him who were shooting at Fraser, it does not take away how valuable it was to “take out” General Fraser in the Battle. When Riflemen were used correctly in the Revolutionary War, they did excellent service.

Gus
 
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While I have no doubt many men were excellent rifle shots, it is my belief that some of these accounts should be taken with a grain of salt ; some of these stories were surely propaganda intended for British eyes. Too many of the things we know that are required for the levels of performance described - barrels with little or no pitting , high quality bullet molds , consistent patching and patch lubricant, good powder, and the money to allow purchase of components for extensive accuracy testing , were usually somewhat or totally lacking. And does anyone believe that the overwhelming majority of any of the above - mentioned groups of men had 20 / 20 or comparable uncorrected vision? Much as I love reading old accounts like these , on some of them I have to call B . S .
 
How do you account for the accounts of British officers who were there and reporting upon what they saw years later??????????????
 
To which accounts do you refer, specifically? This is an important question to answer so that the objectivity of the writer/s and the accuracy of his/their accounts may be considered.
Gus
 
06/23/14 11:12 AM - Post#1406152

In response to Spence10

Another fairly common quote, by British Colonel George Hanger, considered an expert on firearms during this period...After the War he wrote a book on firearms...

"Colonel, now General Tarleton, and myself, were standing a few yards out of a wood, observing the situation of a part of the enemy which we intended to attack. There was a rivulet in the enemy's front, and a mill on it, to which we stood directly with our horses' heads fronting, observing their motions. It was an absolute plain field between us and the mill; not so much as a single bush on it. Our orderly-bugler stood behind us, about three yards, but with his horse's side to our horse's tails. A rifleman passed over the mill-dam, evidently observing two officers, and laid himself down on his belly; for, in such positions, they always lie, to take a good shot at long distance. He took a deliberate and cool shot at my friend, at me, and the bugle-horn man. (I have passed several times over this ground, and ever observed it with the greatest attention; and I can positively assert that the distance he fired from, at us, was full four hundred yards.) Now, observe how well this fellow shot. It was in the month of August, and not a breath of wind was stirring. Colonel Tarleton's horse and mine, I am certain, were not any thing like two feet apart; for we were in close consultation, how we should attack with our troops, which laid 300 yards in the wood, and could not be perceived by the enemy. A rifle-ball passed between him and me: looking directly to the mill, I evidently observed the flash of powder. I directly said to my friend, "I think we had better move, or we shall have two or three of these gentlemen, shortly, amusing themselves at our expense." The words were hardly out of my mouth, when the bugle-horn man, behind us, and directly central, jumped off his horse, and said, "Sir, my horse is shot." The horse staggered, fell down, and died. He was shot directly behind the fore-leg, near to the heart, at least where the great blood-vessels lie, which lead to the heart. He took the saddle and bridle off, went into the wood, and got another horse."
 
OK, so no other accounts you mentioned before?

Because I believe in intellectual honesty, I am going to add the following quote from the same George Hanger, referred to earlier, that was written about 6 years after the Rev War was over.

“I have many times asked the American backwoodsmen what was the most their best marksmen could do; and they have constantly told me that an expert rifleman, provided he can draw good and true sight (they mean by this expression, when they can distinctly see the object aimed at in a direct line with the two sights on the rifle), can hit the head of a man at 200 yards. I am certain provided an American rifleman was to get a perfect aim at 300 yards at me, he would most undoubtedly would hit me, unless if was a very windy day, so much so as to occasion the ball considerably to deflect.”

(Source) Hanger, George, A letter to Lord Castlereagh ... proving how one hundred and fifty thousand men may be acquired in the short space of two months; with instructions to the Volunteers. To which is added a plan for the formation of a corps of consolidated marksmen , p.79, printed for J. Ridgeway, 1789.

OK, was George Hanger “fudging the truth” a bit here so as to get a British Corps of Riflemen approved? Let’s see.

PLEASE notice George DOES NOT write that he actually WITNESSED such shooting, but he got the information from American Riflemen. So it is not his actual experience and word we are taking on the capability of American Riflemen. Now, had he written he had actually witnessed it on many occasions, that would have been an entirely different story, but that is not what he wrote. The only account he actually witnessed and has come down to us in most sources, was the one time an American Rifleman shot at him or Tarleton under ideal conditions that are really rare in War and the Rifleman MISSED them, though not by far to be sure.

There were Tory/Loyalist Riflemen, so were these the people Hanger asked? Could be. Were these captured Patriot Riflemen he asked? Could be. Could be from both sources. But we do have to consider ALL American Riflemen were shall we say, prone to being boastful? That is well documented.

OK, let’s check the size of a human head, shall we? Head length: around 9 inches, Width: around 6 inches. So to be CERTAIN to hit a human head at 200 yards, the rifles had to be capable of shooting into a 6 inch circle at that range or what we would call 3 Minute of Angle (MOA). Were flintlock rifles of the day capable of that kind of accuracy? An honest answer is that many of them probably were, if they had had expensive machine rests to test them. But many people can not shoot as accurately as their rifle can.

Please note that Hanger reported it was said an “expert Rifleman” could do that and not all Riflemen could do that. But, if we look at the “Dog and Pony Shows” put on by American Riflemen at the beginning of the war, when no one was shooting at the Riflemen and they were in their top physical condition, that level of accuracy was rarely claimed. As already mentioned, I do believe that many if not most American Riflemen could hit an enemy soldier in the torso at 200 yards by aiming at the head or the hat, if the enemy soldier was standing still and the Rifleman had a clear shot AND the wind was not blowing much AND the Rifleman was shooting from prone or a well supported position. This is supported by actually shooting Long Rifles at that range and on a target range, but not in combat.

Ok what about 300 yards? Well, Hanger again does not say when he actually witnessed such shooting and relied on hearsay evidence for the following that he wrote, “I am certain provided an American rifleman was to get a perfect aim at 300 yards at me, he would most undoubtedly would hit me, unless if was a very windy day, so much so as to occasion the ball considerably to deflect.” This is the point with all due respect to Colonel Hanger, I have to say all my BS alarms went off, even if on the rare occasion that “not a breath of wind” (as he put it) or a Zero Wind condition existed between the Rifleman and target. The reason I state that is partly because it would be more difficult for the rifle to shoot that well at 300 yards (in groups due to windage variation in the rifle), but also the ability of even truly rare and expert Rifleman to actually align their sights and shoot that well at that distance, especially considering the bullet drop was 8 FEET from their normal aiming point at that distance. Now I am not saying that none of the American Riflemen could have done it, but the few who could would have been truly rare. I absolutely do not believe that was within the common ability of the average Rifleman and that is born out by the best of modern shooters.

Finally, did Hanger have a reason to report “hearsay” evidence on the ability of American Riflemen in that letter over what he actually witnessed to be factual? Bet your boots he did as he was trying to get a “corps of consolidated marksmen” approved. One really has to wonder why he did not report what he actually witnessed and could verify as factual?! To me, it seems pretty clear he was “fudging the truth” to get what he was requesting.

Gus
 
Spence10 said:
I have almost no references to sighting in a gun, and certainly not the details. In Running Mad for Kentucky, Ellen Eslinger quotes from the journal of Johm May, in Pittsburg waiting for the river to rise:

"Sunday, May 17th, 1788”¦. This afternoon I proved my [new] rifle gun----fir’d her 4 times and made excellent shot. 3 times out of 4 I put the ball within 2 inches of the spot which was the bigness of a dollar”¦."

And as for accounts of accurate shooting at distance, this is one of my favorites:

"The Massachusetts Spy
February 23, 1853

A Sharp Shooter - The Harrodsburg Ky. Ploughboy gives us an idea, in the following, of what is called a Kentucky sharp shooter; Mr A. J. Bass, a young man, engaged in the establishment of B. Mills, the celebrated gunsmith of this place, killed five turkies in seven shots, a few days since, at a distance of 325 yards. The gun was one of Mills' rifles, and the young man shot without a rest."

He apparently learned from a master, Benjamin Mills, described in action in this account from 7 years earlier:

"The Columbia (PA) Democrat
April 11, 1846:

"A Mr. A. B. Mills a gunsmith of Harrodsburg, KY with a rifle of his own make running 100 balls to the pound lately made 10 shots at a target 14 by 10 inches and hit 8 times out of 10 at a distance of 400 yards."

Just a point of interest, note that they are still using the term "balls to the pound" in 1846. His rifle was a .36.

Too bad they didn't understand we would like more details in their accounts.

Spence

The Mills rifle was certainly a PICKET RIFLE in both cases given the time frame. A 36 RB will not do this at 400 yards, nor will a 50 or 54. Round balls get increasingly random past 150 yards due to weather conditions.
So far as the Revolutionary War stuff.
First nobody did serious shooting offhand. Matches were invariably shot with a rest since shooting offhand is a poor test of a rifle.
I suggest that people Read Dillon's book, which has some FL rifle targets from the 1830s (IIRC) and accounts of shooting original rifles in the early 20th c. Also look to "The Frontier Rifleman" and "Colonial Riflemen in the American Revolution".
Then try doing some shooting of their own and see what can be done. Also note that a guy with natural 20-15 vision who is a good shot will outshoot the guy with poor eyesight almost every time.

Dan
 
I did a recreation of the shot that killed Frazer at Saratoga some years back. I shot 3 shots at 285 yards from unsupported prone (Frazer said the man that shot him was in a tree). One would have killed or wounded the horse of broadside, one was a clean miss and one
Redcoat.jpg

So I pronounce it "doable" in a 10+- mph cross wind.
A friend of mine claimed, and I have no reason to doubt him, he got a good percentage of hits on a 30" gone at 550 yards with a 54 FL. Backed off to 1000 and could not even see bullet strikes do to not being able to get the balls to go that far. I used to get 1-2 hits out of 6 on this gong from the bench at 550 with 7 1/2" 44-40 Colt. Finding the AIMING POINT is the first problem. But people who never shot anything but a FL rifle in the 44 to 54 caliber rifle might already know where to hold at 300 yards.
The large bore wall rifles (about 1" bore) would strike a common sheet of writing paper at 500 yards. This being about 18 x 22 inches +- from my reading.
But 2 or 4 to the pound is far from 40 to the pound in wind bucking etc.
Dan
 
I give Herb a lot of credit for going through all he did to shoot the rifles at the ranges he did. That is some fine target shooting. By using a modern spotting scope and other modern equipment, he was able to demonstrate what it took to shoot a really good group at 300 yards and with 20 shots, what it took to hit four times at 400 yards on a specific target, at a specific place with aiming points at that place to hit those 4 times out of 20 shots.

Earlier in this thread I already mentioned I have seen good shooting done at 500 yards on a target range with a Flintlock Longrifle that had a set of fine vernier style sights mounted on it. The shooters also used modern spotting scopes, had other shooters spot for them, there were range flags along the course of fire and shooting was done in prone and reverse prone. In that case, the target was placed on a standard military target frame that I think was 6’ x 6’, if I remember correctly. The idea was to be able to see where the PRB went when the wind came up a little.

To put it simply, I do not argue what a Longrifle is capable of with modern round balls carefully matched to the bore size with precision measuring instruments for both the ball and patch, using a short starter, loaded carefully and exactly as possible for every shot and having at least a 20 X spotting scope and shooting from a bench rest in a target setting. OH, and the rifle used by Herb was a percussion gun that gives even the best shooters a slight edge over a flintlock.

But what has this got to do with 18th century technology and Warfare, let alone 18th century Warfare?

If we are to believe that American Riflemen commonly shot this well at 300 yards during the Revolutionary War, then were are the documented cases of them mowing down significant numbers of British Troops in formation at those ranges? Note: I am not asking for significant numbers of individual soldiers having been shot at those ranges, but rather formations in which a missed shot is often likely to hit the Soldier next to or a couple men down from the Soldier aimed at. IOW, I am only asking for effective combat accuracy and not what we call sniping today.

SURELY in a time period when most literate soldiers knew the effective range of a musket was no more than 60 to maybe 80 yards, that such astounding combat accuracy would have been noted and used time and time again, would it not? For example, IF such 300 yard accuracy of the Longrifle was the norm and an understrength company of 60 Riflemen with their carefully loaded FIRST charge in their gun barrels and “laying down as to take the best aim” (to poorly paraphrase Hanger) or take up the best supported position they could; would have hit at least 50% if not 75% percent of their targets and killed/seriously wounded/taken out of action at least 30 if not 45 British Soldiers, no? OK, so where are the documented examples?

Such examples of shooting into formations would not have to be on the battlefield, BTW. A marching column offers the same kind target scenario. If one aimed at the leading soldiers on the flank of a marching column and the soldiers kept marching, the hits would be on the soldiers behind them in marching formations.

Now as opposed to what American Riflemen could do on a Target Range or Dog and Pony show in the Revolutionary War Period, let’s look to an example of what they actually DID in combat. I apologize for the sites used, but I lost my better links when my computer crashed last October. These linked descriptions are all of the same Skirmish/Battle, but are interesting in the details.

6 March 1781 Battle of Wetzel’s Mill at Reedy Fork in Guilford County

Williams was alerted to Tarleton's approach, and managed to withdraw most of his men across the ford, where they established a defensive line. Tarleton's men then drove the last of Williams' light infantry across the river. Tarleton sent a company of men from the 23rd Regiment under James Webster to storm across the ford. Williams' riflemen were ordered to target the officer, and Henry Lee reported that they "discharged their rifles at him, one by one", but "himself and horse were untouched".[1] The British eventually succeeded in crossing the creek, and after several miles of pursuit, Tarleton gave up the chase and rejoined the main army. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Wetzell's_Mill

Light Horse Harry Lee, in later years, recalled that on Reedy Fork he had posted twenty five of Campbell's sharpshooters in an old log schoolhouse with chinking gone. These men could split an apple held on the point of a ramrod by a comrade 150 yards away. They were to fire on 'particular objects'. An important looking officer, later found to be Colonel Webster, was spotted on a fat horse, making slow progress in deep water. All the marksmen had a shot at him, seriatim, some reloading for a second try, all seeing, not believing, as horse and rider passed the stream unhurt. http://rockbridgeadvocate.com/odell/marches.htm

On the south bank of the creek Williams left the Botetourt Riflemen under Preston. When the British vanguard arrived and began to cross the ford, the Botetourt Riflemen fired a volley that sent them fleeing in disarray. The riflemen then crossed the ford themselves and waited for the larger British attack they knew would follow. Cornwallis sent about half his infantry under Col. James Webster. Seeing the reluctance of his men to cross the creek in plain view of the riflemen, Webster slowly crossed on his horse ahead of them while Campbell’s riflemen fired 32 shots at him. Amazingly, Webster reached the other side unscathed. In the face of the unwavering advance of the British line, followed by the arrival of Tarleton with cannons, the American rearguard retreated. In this skirmish the Americans are believed to have lost eight killed, all Botetourt Riflemen. British losses are unknown, but there is little doubt that some of the American riflemen hit their targets. http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~vaboteto/clappsmill.html

Now, maybe this is the case of the worst recorded accuracy by American Riflemen in the Revolutionary War, but it indeed shows why Colonel Lee ordered American Riflemen to not fire beyond 150 yards about 4-5 years earlier.
Gus
 
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Yet at Saratoga we find that when Morgan's Riflemen arrived virtually all the British scouts, natives and Canadians, went home. That they were so effective that anyone going outside the pickets suffer death since they were considered dead anyway. Then there was the success of Dearborne's Infantry paired with Morgan that took the British artillery after the gunners were killed or driven off by rifle fire.
Then we have Breeds Hill where the Officers and Senior NCOs suffered such casualties that they abandoned most of their regalia for the duration of the war. According to one officer many were killed by one man who stood on the brestworks with "muskets" being handed to him. He was finally killed by volley fire after about 15 minutes of firing in this manner. Apparently he he fired for 15 minutes before coming into musket range as the British advanced.
Then there is the fact that rifle armed troops had a winning record against the British and in fact the Patriots had a winning record against the British any time a significant number of rifleman were employed. Where most or all were rifle armed they won 74% of the engagements with only 18% lost. This fell to 63% wins where rifle armed troops were employed as part of the force.

Just a thought. At King's Mtn for example both sides suffered a large percentage head wounds or so I have read.
They we have George Rodgers Clark in the west. Apparently these guys could shoot well enough to keep the artillery at Vincennes from doing any real damage.
So not all riflemen on either side would miss a man 32 shots out of 32 or whatever the number was...
The British liked to discount the rifleman and there were some pretty silly things said. Along with some of the stuff that appeared in Newspapers on both sides of the Atlantic. People who want the understand the Rifleman in the Revolution need to read the books previously listed. Huddleston's does a good job of telling the early failings. But in combat they were a valuable asset if properly applied.
But the Americans spent a lot of time taking rifles away from people and giving them muskets, the British were ADDING rifle units.
The American Generals were often obsessed it would seem with fighting the British fight.
Dan
 
At the Battle of Breed’s Hill
In fact the American troops were all New England Militia from Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Connecticut - colonies where the rifle was almost unknown until the Rev War. So if they brought their own personal arms or those arms they got from British stores, the arms they had were smoothbores. No Rifle Armed troops mentioned at all. General Stark set up aiming stakes and 40 yards and forbade his troops to fire until the British crossed that line. Stark’s men drove off the British Flank attack and forced them to retire and get back in their boats and leave.

The one American who bravely hopped up on the parapet at Breed’s Hill and shot so many times (when others passed him muskets, not rifles) was most likely a good shot. However, the distance from the American lines to where the British halted their advance is mentioned as 50 to 60 yards at the utmost. That is well inside smoothbore range to hit an enemy with every well aimed shot ”“ so even that does not support an unproven theory there were rifles there. But, if you have a source that demonstrates rifles were used at Breed’s Hill, I would be glad to read it. No 300 yard combat effectiveness there.

New York Campaign
Now I see you do not mention how American Riflemen performed so poorly in the New York Campaign. Their actions there were more than an embarrassment and caused LESS Rifle Units to be called for than originally planned and many calls for ALL Riflemen to be rearmed with Muskets. Yes, no 300 yard combat effectiveness there.

First Saratoga: Battle of Freeman's Farm
Under the Command of Dan Morgan, the Rifleman did great work in the woodlands fighting the way they knew so well. They did pick off most British Officers in the advance company and fought back and forth in and out of the woods until they were well outnumbered by the British.

Second Saratoga: Battle of Bemis Heights
This is the action where Morgan’s men killed General Fraser. (It doesn’t matter who or how it was done, it was very important to the Battle.) Much of this action by Morgan was also in or near the woods and the British Artillery were dangerously close to the woods, so Morgan’s Men had great sport with them. Morgan’s men ripped through the Indians and Canadians to engage Fraser’s regulars. Morgan’s men came close to picking off Burgoyne and hit his horse three times. After Fraser fell and the huge American militia brigade of Ten Broeck came up, that stopped the British Attack. Arnold then came up and led assaults that effectively stopped/did in the British Force.

Morgan’s Riflemen did brilliant work at the battles of Saratoga and arguably it was the American Rifleman’s finest hour in the Revolution. Most of their fighting was in and around woods which was their specialty.

King’s Mountain
Lots of Riflemen/Frontiersmen on each side and only ONE British Soldier, the Commander Major Patrick Ferguson. Sure a lot of casualties on both sides were head shots as both sides used cover very effectively, though the distances were not that great in the woods. No 300 yard combat effectiveness there.

The Battle of Vincennes
Well, yes the American Riflemen did keep the small British force from using their artillery. BUT you do realize they were shooting from only 125 yards away which was Point of Aim distance, don’t you? Now, that doesn’t take away from what they did but it was not long range shooting. Actually American smoothbore armed troops got within 60 yards of the Fort and fired into the gun ports with excellent accuracy as well. No 300 yard combat effectiveness there.

I honestly don’t know the point you are trying to make about Rifleman being there in larger percentage of American Victories. Riflemen were a supporting arm in any major battle they fought outside King’s Mountain and to a lesser extent Vincennes. Musket/smoothbore armed men were in 100% of every major American victory including Kings Mountain for whatever that means.

So, outside of Saratoga where some long range shooting was done very effectively at individual targets, I see you did not give one example of where American Riflemen actually showed evidence of 300 yard combat effective shooting against British Formations that we should easily have seen had they been so effective at that range.
Gus
 
Sorry, I forgot 6 March 1781 Battle of Wetzel’s Mill at Reedy Fork in Guilford County.

32 Shots fired by 25 Riflemen at a SINGLE British Officer as his horse was swimming a large stream/small river and NOT a single hit on the Officer or Horse. Combat effectiveness? Downright embarrassing.

Gus
 
Firing at a 'mark' in a peaceful environment is quite a bit different than firing in combat whilst being fired upon.
Attempting to gauge a weapons capability is very hard to address under those conditions.
It's a tad more than 'buck fever' I'd say.
Same examples with modern arms and troops.
 
Gus,

I hope I can convey my thoughts legibly through this limited medium with my meager education.

The thread that had Herbs shot was about pickets being picked off at 300 to 400 yards by Seminoles. At the time of the thread no one could say exactly what rifles the Seminole used. Most came to the conclusion it was some type of longrifle. I have discovered that indeed they were Indian Trade rifles, manufactured by Derringer. The Seminoles were given over two thousand trade rifles a year before the 2nd Seminole War.

The OP of that thread tried to give the Seminole some type of super human ability in marksmanship which I disagreed. I also disagreed with others who stated such shots were impossible. Others stated a lot what is heard in this thread. A few stated that the accounts of Seminole marksmanship and Rev War accounts of the same were fairy tales, out right lies and officers spinning accounts to further their careers.

Herb's Dan's and other's shooting proves that indeed a round ball from a rifle can indeed go that far. Simply put it is possible.

Once a rifleman connects with such a shot it is easier for him to do it again and again as he has gained the experience. I'm not saying it is a common shot or even frequent but when you have a arm that is capable, shooters that try especially in a force, there are bound to be hits and some shooters can repeat the feat.

On the other hand some targets can literally walk through at "Gravy Train" range unscathed.

Do I believe that Rev War riflemen were such great marksman they could routinely accomplish these feats daily? NO

Do I believe the accounts of such great shots? Most I do.

As far as short starters and 18th Century lead ball, I still think these shots were possible even with rifles loaded in the 18th Century manner.

Here are two of the greatest artillery shots in history to illustrate my point.

***** Fort Shot of 1816. In 1816 an American expedition went up the Apalachicola River to neutralize the Ex British Fort Prospect garrisoned by blacks, renegades and hostile Creeks/Seminoles. The firs hot shot fired by the bombarding gun boat went through the open doors of the powder magazine blowing the ***** Fort to Smithereens.

Were the gunners on that boat in a flowing river really that good with a smooth bore piece?
I do not think so, they were simply at the right place, at the right time, with the right instrument.

The HMS Hood May 1941.

The Bismark had bracketed the Hood with her first two salvos, to the surprise of even the Germans, the third hit the Hood precisely in the worst possible place exploding her magazine and breaking her in two.

Were the German's that good?
Again they were in the right place at the right time. The angle the of the Hood as she closed just monetarily exposed her vulnerability and at that moment she took a German shell....It happens.

OOps, almost forgot about the Swordfish. That one was Almost a miss, almost. If he had hit the Bismark amidships she would have made her escape instead that "miss" hit the rudder sealing her fate.

In my opinion the longrifle with an average shooter was a good 100 yard gun. Add the fog and stress of war and I can see that range shrinking. Conversely though the weapon was capable and sometimes through sheer luck and skill it could and sometimes did connect.
 
I get your drift and think it's pretty common sensical. You're up pretty late.

We train basic riflemen, today, to shoot with iron sights to 300 meters (avg. small arms engagement range). They do pretty good on a range.
Does that mean in combat they'll be as effective...no.
OTOH, there are those who are better trained, more inclined to the art that can kill at 500 meters or more with an M4 and iron sights. Consistently...and further out.
So I buy your scenario and I think that's why certain long range shots were noted....they were better trained and more inclined to the art and impressed friend and foe alike.
 
I tend to believe these stories of remarkable marksmanship from the American Revolution. I have seen some very amazing shots made by my dad. Some so unbelievable I just don't bother telling the stories as I always get called a liar or I am exaggerating.
Seeing is believing.
 
nchawkeye said:
Of course, some question stories in the Bible as well...
Oh my God, really? Imagine that!

Re-discovered my Dad's helmet liner from WWII cleaning out the parents' house. The metal pot he and Mom literally used as a planter when they didn't have one to pee in (and still didn't eat grits). Anyway, guess what was inside on a label he'd glued in...

...what I immediately recognized as ranges in hundreds of yards and the windage and elevation clicks to get there for him and his M-1 Garrand rifle. Shooters know how to shoot, have practiced, zeroed and sighted in. Hello!!!
 
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