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This may sound stupid but

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bigbore442001

50 Cal.
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considering the fact that California is planning to ban lead projectiles in certain buzzard areas and some other states, including the Bay State, are considering the same stupidity is it possible to make a roundball out of bismuth?

I know it is used in waterfowl shotshells but could it be made into a larger round ball? Would it have the same characteristics of a lead ball? Just some random thoughts.
 
bigbore442001 said:
considering the fact that California is planning to ban lead projectiles in certain buzzard areas and some other states, including the Bay State, are considering the same stupidity is it possible to make a roundball out of bismuth?

I know it is used in waterfowl shotshells but could it be made into a larger round ball? Would it have the same characteristics of a lead ball? Just some random thoughts.
I don't think its stupid at all...its a reality that is creeping across the country...other state have now begun following California's lead...Arizona, NY, and I think on of the New England states. I started playing with the idea last year because we already know the evolution that occurred in the "lead shot" vacuum involving substitutes like steel, bismuth, hevi-shot, tungsten, etc, produced alternatives that they are all grossly expensive.

If they are the only alternatives that could be used for hunting I assume we'd all still be able to afford enough for annual sighting in and hunting, but the year round cost of shooting would probably have the biggest impact...and all the other possible ball metals like aluminum, copper, brass, etc, are also all cost prohibitive as well.

Alternatives I tried last fall were some cowboy action shooters wax bullets but they're just too light for any accuracy...right now getting ready to experiment with marbles...and they're very inexpensive.

The 9/16" marble averages 60grns weight and .560"-.580" dia...most in the .560"-570" range so they should be able to be used in a .58cal with a thick patch...have a couple hundred and will try them when the weather warms up a little.

Have some 1/2" (.500") marbles on order to try in a .54cal with a thick patch...patched hard rubber projectiloes will be another alternative to try for practice sessions...and they'd probably be reusable...are available in the industry today.

Hoping to find some sort of a cheap alternative like this that will have reasonable enough accuracy to be able to afford continuing the weekend shooting even if it means reduced distances, etc...
 
nope, it doesn't sound like a stupid question to me... i guess it would depend on the hardness of the stuff. does anyone out there know the brinnel hardness of bismuth?
 
roundball said:
The 9/16" marble averages 60grns weight and .560"-.580" dia...most in the .560"-570" range so they should be able to be used in a .58cal with a thick patch...have a couple hundred and will try them when the weather warms up a little.

Have some 1/2" (.500") marbles on order to try in a .54cal with a thick patch.

FYI...this is the source I used:
[url] http://www.megaglass.com[/url]
 
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I thought only kids played with marbles :grin:

I do agree that more research is needed.

I would also like to see anything in the way of alternatives put forth, before these nut jobs decide to just outright ban something :cursing:

I think it is time to stock up on lead. I have also been thinking about recovering lead from a home made bullet trap in order to recast and shoot it again!

Who is on our side?? Anybody??
 
For target shooting I use stacks of car tires filled with sand or dirt,as long as there is no big rocks,most any dirt will work. After shooting a few hundred rounds, just break down the pile behind the busseye and the lead will be easy to gather. turnthe holes a quater turn, refill the few tires you had to empty and start shooting again.Its cheap and wooks well.
 
I,ve got a 3'x4' chunk of 5/8 steel layed over on 4x4s. all the balls are all in the ground at the bottom of the steel.
 
Mule Brain said:
I thought only kids played with marbles :grin:

I do agree that more research is needed.

I would also like to see anything in the way of alternatives put forth, before these nut jobs decide to just outright ban something :cursing:

I think it is time to stock up on lead. I have also been thinking about recovering lead from a home made bullet trap in order to recast and shoot it again!

Who is on our side?? Anybody??
Recovering lead for reuse is good on its own merits of course...but I'm concerned about if/when the use of lead is banned altogether
 
Gordy, we used this idea, tires filled with earth at our range...among the tires donated were a number of winter ones with the spikes...gave some interesting richochets...I got a .22 in the middle of my forehead....didn't penetrate...thick skin, thicker skull...it's a good idea ,but do check the tires first..Hank
 
It's actually a very sensible question and, unfortunately, something we may all face in our lifetimes. Especially when the Anti's hop on the "lead is poison" wagon and have more leverage against us. Remington briefly toyed with copper plated round balls partially in response to the fears of handling lead some years back. That may be one solution.

I don't know that bismuth or antimony are any better for the environment or living organisms than lead (heavy metal poisoning isn't specific) and certainly more expensive at present. Maybe a tungsten core with a zinc or tin outer layer to get the same weight? Be awful expensive.

A tin/silver mix (silver solder is 4% silver) might also be a solution, but light.

I watched a National Geographic where tiger poachers melted a metal toothpaste tube to form the bullet. What were those made of?
 
Trying to end-run the latest "environmental" restriction or anti-gun regulation isn't going to hack it. We're kidding ourselves if we think it will.

Time to suck it up and realize the liberal statist left wants ALL our guns, from the semi-autos all the way to the flinters; and everything in between. They won't rest until we're all disarmed. How can we expect to rest until they're defeated? Instead of digging lead out of backstops, we should be spending the time hammering our elected representatives and loudly voicing opposition to absurd regulations.

Lead bans have nothing to do with the environment and everything to do with disarmament. This won't be defeated by trying to creep around the edges or slipping through the cracks. Expecting some kind of exemption for the purposes of historical preservation is hopeless as well. It's time to realize that America's history as a nation of free armed citizens is a history that the statists specifically want to deny and/or eradicate.

Time to stop picking fights with fellow shooters and join with them to confront this thing head-on. We've much more in common with inline shooters and centerfire shooters than we do with statist lefties.

Though it may change shapes, this isn't going away.

The tea wasn't tossed in the harbor by people who were trying to "slip through the cracks".
Bob

/soap box
 
The Science concerning lead " Pollution " is all in our favor. The lead in drinking water gets there from deep underground, and not from surface runoff. The lead from shotgun pellets that lands on the ground quickly oxidizes with either iron or calcium, in the soils, which form a protective " cake " around the ball, bullet or pellet. The Cake insulates the lead from being broken down further. Anyone seeing, or buying souvenire " musket balls " from any of the Civil War battlefields is familiar with the white colored " crud " that covers these old bullets. I have seen the sam oxidation on bullets that were stored in damp basements for years, and you still see a lot of this oxide on old ammo at gun shows, usually on the tables of ammo and cartridge collectors.

The scientific studies show that the lead found in geese and ducks from post mortems come from being wounded during hunting season, and NOT from any lead pellet found in the craws of the birds. In fact, later studies ( after Glen Sanderson's initial study) show that the pellets in the craws of the birds are swallowed, and move through the digestive track to be excreted and are replaced almost daily with new stones, or pellets that the birds pick up. Glen's initial estimates of mortality of Ducks and Geese were way off, and he later testified that when he found his errors and corrected them, the number of ducks and geese that died from lead " poisoning " were well within the number of Geese and ducks that died from wounds, and other common sources of mortality. Lead shot did not increase mortality at all!

As for the recent Condor Studies, I suspect the true problem are the irresponsible actions of a few idiots who shoot at the birds with rifles, to " see if they can hit that big bird up there", Rather than any problem the birds have ingesting ML round balls( which realistically are not very round after they hit any kind of surface). The California statue was passed by a very anti-gun, anti-hunting legislature, controlled by the Democrats, and gleefully so, as a stick in the eye of the NRA, because of the success of the NRA in overturning the San Francisco Handgun ban.

I don't understand why shooters, and shooting clubs and Associations in all these state, together with the NRA don't put together the studies that refute the "lead poisoning " concerns, and line up the experts to march into the committee hearings any time these kind of bills are proposed. The one thing that lefties pride themselves in is that they are " better educated " than most of their constituents, and that they " have a responsibility to make decisions on how their constituents live their lives" because the legislator knows better how we should live. They love SCIENCE. They use it to justify any of their Left leaning theories of government. That is why Junk Science sells so well. The lefties turn out " studies " based on laboratory " models" that say anything the politicians want the Science to say. NO one ever asks if the models are correct, until after the laws are already passed. OUR wonderful EPA has a long history of doing the bidding of the Socialists, in producing junk science to justify further taxes, or further restrictions on what we can do. The Center for Disease Control is also a Left Wing complicite organization, producing junk science in the medical field to help out the Socialists seize control, and restrict our freedoms. When real science confronts them in an open forum, they retreat, like rats to their holes.
 
short_start said:
Well, thanks for all that... :grin: ...but in the meantime, do you have any alternative suggestions in the event lead does indeed become banned, even in spite of voting?
 
An old timer I once met at a bar many years ago gave me a bit of advice I will take to my grave. "If you're gonna break the law, make good and sure it is only just one law at a time." You don't go bar hoppin with a burned out tail light! On the lead front issue, if the need ever arrizes, my hunting pouch has many compartments! :v To quote an old old Pee Wee Herman flick....."I'm a rebel Dottie, a loner...
 
Maybe cast bronze could be an alternate (they used to make gun barrels out of it). Copper, tin, zinc - or near the same alloy with a little phosphorus.

Periodic comparison between lead and bismuth show similar weight and melting points anyway...

Lead
Atomic Number: 82 Atomic Symbol: Pb
Atomic Weight: 207.2 Electron Configuration: 2-8-18-32-18-4
Shells: 2,8,18,32,18,4 Filling Orbital: 6p2
Melting Point: 254oC Boiling Point: 962oC
Description: Radioactive metal.
Uses:

Bismuth
Atomic Number: 83 Atomic Symbol: Bi
Atomic Weight: 208.9804 Electron Configuration: 2-8-18-32-18-5
Shells: 2,8,18,32,18,5 Filling Orbital: 6p3
Melting Point: 271.3oC Boiling Point: 1560oC
Description: Brittle white metal with a pink tint
Uses: Main use is in pharmaceuticals and in low melting point alloys
 
is it possible to make a roundball out of bismuth?
Yes, it is....unfortunately, it would be so brittle as to be practially useless. Current bismuth (or the last batches that were made) were a mixture of tin and bismuth (not sure of the ratio). Prior to that, some folks shooting bismuth would have nothing by a grey cloud of bismuth dust come out of their muzzles! The setback forces of the shotgun would pulverize the shot as it was fired.

Remington briefly toyed with copper plated round balls partially in response to the fears of handling lead some years back.
Copper can be just as toxic as lead.

I don't know that bismuth or antimony are any better for the environment or living organisms than lead (heavy metal poisoning isn't specific) and certainly more expensive at present.

Bismuth is nontoxic; antimony isn't. Bismuth is the main ingredient in peptobismol, used to treat stomach & intestinal disorders.

A tin/silver mix (silver solder is 4% silver) might also be a solution, but light.
I was thinking along the lines of a silver/bismuth alloy....nontoxic and heavier. Tin shot has been used for waterfowling in some areas of Europe; it was used because some of the hunting was done in areas that were timbered; steel pellets would damage the saws; tin wouldn't. However, tin shot was too light and didn't kill very well. It is approved by the USFWS, but I don't know of anyone who manufactures it.

I watched a National Geographic where tiger poachers melted a metal toothpaste tube to form the bullet. What were those made of?

They used to be made of tin, and there are quite a few bullet casters out there that are sad to see 'em go to plastic! That was a good source of scrap tin for bullet casting!

Lead bans have nothing to do with the environment and everything to do with disarmament. This won't be defeated by trying to creep around the edges or slipping through the cracks. Expecting some kind of exemption for the purposes of historical preservation is hopeless as well. It's time to realize that America's history as a nation of free armed citizens is a history that the statists specifically want to deny and/or eradicate.

Time to stop picking fights with fellow shooters and join with them to confront this thing head-on. We've much more in common with inline shooters and centerfire shooters than we do with statist lefties.

I agree, but what do you do in the mean time? Hang up your front loader and go "Oh, well"? That's what they want you to do. As far as getting in bed with the inline and centerfire shooters, they already have nontoxic alternatives: plastic sabots and brass solids. It may seem like a good idea to sleep with the devil now, but trust me...you will have to pay for it later. Where is the NRA when it comes to defending our 'traditional' rights? Oh, that's right...their too busy trying to get inlines & scopes allowed in every states traditional season. :shake:

The scientific studies show that the lead found in geese and ducks from post mortems come from being wounded during hunting season, and NOT from any lead pellet found in the craws of the birds. In fact, later studies ( after Glen Sanderson's initial study) show that the pellets in the craws of the birds are swallowed, and move through the digestive track to be excreted and are replaced almost daily with new stones, or pellets that the birds pick up.

Not necessarily[url] true....In[/url] areas of heavy hunting pressure, you will find birds dying of lead poisoning where lead is used. It does get ground with the grit and enters the blood stream. It doesn't just 'pass straight through'.

Whatever material is used, it will most likely have to be an alloy or amalgam.....Density-wise, bismuth falls halfway between steel and lead; Tungsten matrix is much, much closer to lead in density. I don't know if the material can be casted into round ball or conicals, however. Seems to me if it can be made it small spheres, then it can be made into large spheres as well.
 
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Short start is right. The real question is when the revolution against the anti-gun forces will begin. Wonky
 
bigbore442001 said:
considering the fact that California is planning to ban lead projectiles in certain buzzard areas and some other states, including the Bay State, are considering the same stupidity is it possible to make a roundball out of bismuth?

I know it is used in waterfowl shotshells but could it be made into a larger round ball? Would it have the same characteristics of a lead ball? Just some random thoughts.

what bout a copper round ball :hmm: :v .................bob

....
 
Here in Ga. and also Alabama, I have noticed that all of the creeks that I have dredged and panned looking for gold have one thing in common. A good bit of lead. Whether bird shot or a smashed car battery, I found it everywhere we went. I always saved it to melt into roundballs, but it was there just the same. If it is totally banned tomorrow, there is enough lead there already to keep folks talking.I have to agree with Paul, the lead is usually coated in corrosion, which keeps it sealed, so to speak. I think it is just more fuel for the anti-gunners to use against us.
 
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