This may sound stupid!

[50cal.cliff]

This build I am about to start will be my first scratch! So this question has been in my mind for the past few days! When building a muzzleloader from scratch which determines the other.

I am assuming and yes I know what that word means!!

Assuming the barrel placement is going to dictate the placement of the lock! If that assumption is correct, the snail or drum would dictate lock placement, which in turn would dictate the trigger placement??

I know with trigger placement we are looking at LOP. So does trigger placement dictate lock placement, which in turn would dictate the rear of the barrel placement??

Now that I have this question in writing it seems even stupider than it did in my mind! However I also know even on that Traditions Hawken. The precut for the trigger was off by a smidge. I ended up having to dado the trigger cut slightly forward to get the lock to function correctly!!

So if there is a formula for figuring all this out. Please enlighten me!!

 

[Brokennock]

I don't build, but, I don't think that your question is at all stupid for someone doing this for the 1st time.
That said, I would think that trigger placement would be dictated by lock and barrel placement, and them length of pull can be adjusted by how long you make the stock from there back.

 

[50cal.cliff]

Well thanks for not making me sound even more stupid than I felt!! I just know even with a pre-cut stock I had to make adjustments.

I must be doing something wrong when I try to quote someone. I highlight someone's words I get the option to quote. Yet when I click on quote it doesn't appear in the dialog box!!

Brokennock
That said, I would think that trigger placement would be dictated by lock and barrel placement, and them length of pull can be adjusted by how long you make the stock from there back.

So along that thought of that line of thinking. I am thinking the drum or the snail basically dictates the lock placement. From that you should be able to determine trigger placement!

My mind has kind of gotten locked into this idea of a scratch build. So I am trying to work out any bugs before I commence to actually putting a chisel to the wood!

So again is there some kind a formula to figuring this out?? How do you know when you have the barrel in the right place?

 

[deerstalkert]

nothing stupid about your question!
i am struggling with the exact thing at the moment. in my case the barrel is inletted, now i have to decide wither to inlet the lock then locate the vent, (mine is going to be a flinter) or drill the vent and locate the lock to it. then i will worry about the trigger.
such heavy decisions ! love retirement!

if i have things correct in my mind the vent, drum or snail needs to be just a red hair ahead of the breach plug. that seems to be where to start in my case. then i can place the lock so the pan fits the touch hole in the sunset position. that done the trigger assembly is dictated by the lock.
with a drum or snail you need to place the lock so the cock/ hammer will strike the nipple. but i could be wrong on all accounts. i have built many guns but this is my first flinter. fascinating process.

 

[LawrenceA]

Not an expert by any stretch of the imagination.
Watch Bill Raby's videos. They taught me a lot.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/building-a-4-bore-rifle.133297/
Basically draw the gun on the wood so you know where things will sit approximately.
Set in the barrel and tang which determines the lock.
Set in the lock which determines the trigger.
Set in the trigger that determines the LOP.
Set in the buttplate.
Remove what does not look like a gun.
Done

Is there a formula? well there could be. But you need to measure everything and work back and hope you don't get anything out of place. Easier to leave the butt a little long at the start.
Reality for me was just start at the front (with a smidge to spare), work back and see how it falls into place.

 

[LawrenceA]

I probably should expand a little.
While the front of the stock is pretty well fixed. As you sink the barrel and tang in, chances are you will set it back a little to ensure good contact.
When you set the lock in you may choose to angle it and as such the distance between the sear and touch hole or nipple will move slightly as will the relationship with the wood.
You will then judge the trigger pivot location for a lighter or heavier trigger pull or so that the double set will operate correctly.
After all that you need to set out the stock lines adjusting for cast and camber.
Then you set in your buttplate and set Length of Pull Drop etcetera.

 

[Treestalker]

Barrel first, then lock and then triggers, but lay it out in pencil first, and work from the middle back to the buttplate and forward to the muzzle. After you screw up a couple of guns, you will know why BP gunsmiths are considered a cantankerous lot, LOL! Always best to have a mentor look over your work as you go, especially your first scratch build. Good luck. It will cause you to curse your mother for giving you birth, but when you fire a gun you built from junk parts the first time, you'll have joined the ranks of the hopelessly lost. And no one can take that away from you, ever.

 

[Norman Brooks]

It is also a good idea to make sure the barrel is clamped in good before laying out the lock.

 

[Hatchet-Jack]

If you haven't already you might want to pickup some books on building rifles. These are the three I own. They explain just about everything you need to know about scratch builds. Good luck on your build!

 

[Brokennock]

Okay so, I can't help you much more with the rifle build than the thoughts I've given you. Buy, quotes, here are some screenshots to try to help,

I just highlited something random as an example, then I clicked "quote" and went down to the reply box. Look to the bottom of the box,

Click insert quotes, and,

that line of thinking. I am thinking the drum or the snail basically dictates the lock placement.

There you go. It is important to remember not to type anything between the 1st word "[quote" and the second, "quote]"

You may have to wait a second after adding the quote so what you type doesn't start before the quote. As you can see, you can add the quote anytime.
You can also save multiple quotes.
Hope this helps with that.

Back to the subject at hand. Your rifle build. Dint be afraid to send a p.m. to some of the better builders here. Most of them are very helpful. A lot of advice will be offered in the open forum like this, but that can be a lot to filter through. I may be wrong but, I think @dave_person has a tutorial or "build along," on the ALR forum. I can't remember his screen name there though.

 

[PathfinderNC]

It might be something to consider- building a good kit gun first. With it, you can get a hands-on understanding of the order of steps in a basic build. With that, you may find yourself a bit more ready for a ‘from scratch’ rifle.

 

[Sidney Smith]

nothing stupid about your question!
i am struggling with the exact thing at the moment. in my case the barrel is inletted, now i have to decide wither to inlet the lock then locate the vent, (mine is going to be a flinter) or drill the vent and locate the lock to it. then i will worry about the trigger.
such heavy decisions ! love retirement!

if i have things correct in my mind the vent, drum or snail needs to be just a red hair ahead of the breach plug. that seems to be where to start in my case. then i can place the lock so the pan fits the touch hole in the sunset position. that done the trigger assembly is dictated by the lock.
with a drum or snail you need to place the lock so the cock/ hammer will strike the nipple. but i could be wrong on all accounts. i have built many guns but this is my first flinter. fascinating process.

Definitely inlet the barrel first, then the lock, then the triggers. Do not drill the vent before the lock is inletted. I'm assuming your breech plug is already installed on the barrel. If not do that before installing the barrel and definitely before considering drilling the vent hole.

You definitely want that lock inletted and up tight to the barrel before considering drilling the vent.

 

[EC121]

Mark the face of the breechplug on the side of the barrel. From there mark the drum or vent center location using a light punch mark for a reference. Then inlet the lock to that reference. The triggers will be located by the lock. Then do the wood work for the LOP. No known formula that I know of except the old precision 20/20 eyeball. Install the vent last.

 

[bud in pa]

I would rather ask a seemingly stupid question than have to buy a new stock blank. Remember there are no stupid questions.

 

[user 48679]

I must be doing something wrong when I try to quote someone.

I highlight someone's words I get the option to quote.

Yet when I click on quote it doesn't appear in the dialog box!!

There's no such thing as a stupid question - only stupid answers.

The others above have given you the right answers about a build......

As far as quoting goes, the first time I was with a woman, she said I was doing it wrong...……

When you want to quote someone's post as part of your reply, look at the lower RH corner of the post you want to quote, and you'll see two buttons - "+ quote' & "reply".

Click on " + quote" first, then on "reply" - when you click on "reply", a new post will open immediately with the quoted material at the top of the new post.

You can then type in whatever beneath the quote - but if the quoted post is longer than what you want to quote, and/or may have pics, you can do what I did to quote your words.

Edit the quoted words/pics via backspacing through the unwanted portions of the quote before you finish by clicking on "post reply" ( play with it, picking/chosing to get the portions you want to quote).

 

[50cal.cliff]

If you haven't already you might want to pickup some books on building rifles. These are the three I own. They explain just about everything you need to know about scratch builds. Good luck on your build!

View attachment 86471
View attachment 86472

I have the book Recreating the American Long Rifle

Okay so, I can't help you much more with the rifle build than the thoughts I've given you. Buy, quotes, here are some screenshots to try to help,
View attachment 86491
I just highlited something random as an example, then I clicked "quote" and went down to the reply box. Look to the bottom of the box,
View attachment 86497
Click insert quotes, and,


There you go. It is important to remember not to type anything between the 1st word "[quote" and the second, "quote]"
View attachment 86498
You may have to wait a second after adding the quote so what you type doesn't start before the quote. As you can see, you can add the quote anytime.
You can also save multiple quotes.
Hope this helps with that.

Ok the lightbulb is on I never noticed that "insert quotes". On the old forum you just hit quote and it appeared in the box below! So I guess I just experienced one of those DUH moments!!

Back to the subject at hand. Your rifle build. Dint be afraid to send a p.m. to some of the better builders here. Most of them are very helpful. A lot of advice will be offered in the open forum like this, but that can be a lot to filter through. I may be wrong but, I think @dave_person has a tutorial or "build along," on the ALR forum. I can't remember his screen name there though.

Ok don't worry I don't want to screw up a stock so will be asking questions for sure!

It might be something to consider- building a good kit gun first. With it, you can get a hands-on understanding of the order of steps in a basic build. With that, you may find yourself a bit more ready for a ‘from scratch’ rifle.

Well I have built a St. Louis Hawken by Traditions and a GPR by Lymans. Not sure if that qualifies for a good kit gun or not. However I learned even with a kit gun, precut is precut. You may have to adjust slightly but the big decisions have already been made for you!

To everyone I do appreciate the advice. This build is just in the planning stage at this point. So that is why I am asking. I have learned it is cheaper to learn from others mistake, instead of ruining a good stock for a stupid move on my part!!

I kind of had it in my mind that the way to go was locate the barrel, which in turn, locates the lock and the trigger is located off of the lock! Then my mind goes but, if I locate the barrel to far forward I can go further back. But if I located the barrel to far back I have just made a bad mistake !

It is kind of like I asked my Mama one time, how did you learn to swim. She said, well all us kids went to the creek and I was just sitting with my feet in the water. My brother asked me why aren't you in the water. She told him, I don't know how to swim. He scooped me up and threw me out in the middle of the creek. He said and you ain't gonna learn sitting there!!

So I guess it is getting about time for me to get into the water! With just a little more planning!!!

 

[EC121]

Don't buy a blank with the lock inlet done. Then it doesn't matter where the barrel ends up.

 

[TommyG]

Paper first. i draw all my guns on paper first, unless I have a drawing, even then I'll do some tweaking for the drop, LOP, etc.. This puts everything into perspective and gives you a good idea of the relationship between all the components and how they will need to be installed. It also gives you your profile for the buttstock, which you will need to inlet the tang. As far as sequence goes, the way I do it is - barrel inlet, RR channel & hole, rough cut stock to profile(leaving butt end long), inlet breach plug & tang, trim stock sides straight( don't follow the swamp, trim to 5/32), lay out lugs and pipes on forearm(this step is important as I like to have them evenly spaced and the holes aligned), inlet & drill barrel lugs for pinning, rough cut lock panel, position & inlet lock. From there I do my RR pipes to determine the plane that goes from the trigger plate to the entry pipe. Once that plane is determined and executed, I inlet the trigger plate & trigger(s), then drill & tap for tang bolt. Determine LOP and inlet buttplate. Hope I didn't miss anything, and as other's mentioned, go onto ALR and look for Mike Brooks build tutorial. Straight up and easy to follow, BTW I have all of the books mentioned above and use them at times as well. Keep us posted on your progress.

 

[Cherrybow]

Check out this video series from “Golden Means Flintlocks” on you tube. Tyler shows building a flintlock from scratch only using hand tools. Very well done I might add.

 

[50cal.cliff]

Check out this video series from “Golden Means Flintlocks” on you tube. Tyler shows building a flintlock from scratch only using hand tools. Very well done I might add.

Watched # 1 video today. Very good information. There is a total of 8 videos. Lots of good information in those!!!