Thompson Center Cherokee or New Englander for Youth

[OBX-TXN]

I am looking at getting a muzzleloader for my granddaughter. (She has informed me that she knows I took her dad and uncles muzzleloading when they were 14 and she expects me to take her.) She has hunted with a .243 but wants to try black powder. My TC Hawken is just a bit heavy for her.

I was looking for a TC Cherokee in .45 thinking she could practice with PRB and hunt with Maxi-ball when I came across a New Englander in .50 and was wondering if the shorter round barrel would be equally light and the single trigger simpler. I have never handled either gun.

Thoughts...?

 

[bubba.50]

the biggest drawback to the Cherokee is they tend to be a bit pricey. the New Englander is almost as light & handy & can be loaded down to suit her and grow right along with her if she decides to stay with it for the long haul. either one would be an excellent choice IMHO.

 

[jon math]

New Englanders are nice for beginners with the single trigger too. You might even find a shotgun barrel for it down the road when she gets a big bigger.

 

[OBX-TXN]

Good points from both of you. The "set" trigger on the Cherokee does bother me a little having seen a couple of ADs with them by folks who should have known better. I guess if I was really being practical I would just get her a TC Impact ... but she likes "olden" things much preferring, for instance, to fly my '46 Cub to more modern stuff.

I fairly dote on her so the extra expense doesn't much signify.

 

[Critter Getter]

I had a Cherokee that I put together from a kit back in the mid '80's. I took a few deer with it and sold it to my best friend. He still owns it and I have offered to buy it back but he won't sell it. I wanted a rifle for my wife so I bought a couple TC Seneca rifles in .45 caliber. She just used it a week or so ago to take a big buck. ( see Wife's First BP Buck) in the hunting section of this forum. I think either the Cherokee or the New Englander would work but think I would lean towards the Cherokee for a slightly better stock fit as if I remember right the New Englanders stock drops a bit more for my taste. Also you might want to pay attention to the length of pull on whichever you choose. Good luck with your search!! Greg.

 

[bubba.50]

the Cherokee was available with a single trigger that was the same as New Englander/White Mountain Carbine/Penn Hunter & others with the exception that the T-guard was brass. if ya find one on Gunbroker or similar places it's about a 50-50 chance it'll be single-trigger.

 

[Skychief]

I'd get her a Cherokee or Seneca and not look back. No need for Maxi balls. Either they or roundballs are fine medicine for deer.

DST are no big deal and easy to learn to work properly in about 5 minutes flat.

I killed a nice whitetail with my .45 Seneca two years ago. He dressed out at 220# and was taken with a prb at 60 or 70 yards. Went through both lungs and kept going. He made it just a few yards before giving up the ghost.

She'll like the reduced recoil of a round ball out of a light gun too more than likely.

Good luck, Skychief.

 

[necchi]

No, the New Englander is not lighter. It's heavier.
There is no need to use a maxiball for hunting Deer size or smaller game.
If she is trying to compare herself to two males her age, she needs to understand the difference or be able to adapt to the difference.
You need to understand that any youth should be able to handle a New Englander/Hawken size rifle with the proper loads.

It's not about the rifle, it's about proper set-up and support.

Granted, a 90# kid is not going to be able to handle the same rifle as one that's 125#, an active child is more ready then one that's been playing video games,,
It's not about the rifle choice.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I have a New Englander with .50 cal rifle & 12 ga barrel and it did great service through regular gun season on whitetails for years. It's also a great bunny shotgun with the 12 ga barrel (I had mine jug choked).

It's a fine hunting gun. Might or might not fit a 14 year old girl.

 

[Jensen]

I have a .50 cal Seneca and I agree it would make a great youth rifle.

 

[Critter Getter]

You must be mistaken or have a custom barrel then because the biggest caliber the Seneca came in from the factory was .45. Greg

 

[OBX-TXN]

As a small 10 yr old I roamed my grandparent's farm /w a full size double barreled 12 ga. so I get you can make do with just about anything, but my granddaughter (then 12) was far better off with a Ruger Hawkeye .243 w/ 16.5 inch barrel and 12.5" pull than she would have been with my full sized model 70 in the same caliber ... so that's what I got her.

She's not a wimp, last year in the 7th grade she beat all the boys in her class doing pull ups and runs the 400 and 800 meter on her school track team. (She also rides off-road motorcycles and is becoming a pretty good aerobatic pilot ...)

And I'm not new to guns. I shot competitively in my 30 years in the Army and ran ranges on everything from 1911s thru the M-2 .50.

I don't mean to sound harsh but frankly I don't need advice on how to teach a youngster to shoot (I taught 2lts ), just how the Cherokee and New Englander compare, which your first 2 sentences answered just fine and I thank you.

FWIW I hunted with a prb in a CVS Hawken .50 for my first 10 years and later found I got better drop right theres with conicals from my Great Plains Hunter and TC Hawken because I could shoot thru and take out the far shoulder if need be plus I got a bit better ballistic coefficient for further shots.

When I hunted woodlands, blood trailing was easy and I took a lot of deer with prb (and more with a bow)... but in Eastern NC pocosin swamp if the deer runs 30 yards there is a good chance you won't find them...

 

[Jensen]

Sorry yes. I have a 45 cal Seneca that would bee great too. What I ment to say was I have a .50cal White mountain carbine that would be great for a youth rifle.

Thanks for correcting me. I think I may have too many rifles to keep them straight. Haha

 

[necchi]

She's not a wimp, last year in the 7th grade she beat all the boys in her class doing pull ups and runs the 400 and 800 meter on her school track team. (She also rides off-road motorcycles and is becoming a pretty good aerobatic pilot ...)

My TC Hawken is just a bit heavy for her.

:hmm:
Heavier rifles,, hold target better and re-coil less.
I started my son's BP career with Traditions St Louis Hawken in 50 at 9yrs old.

And I'm not new to guns.

I cut the stock back, added a pachymar grind to fit and set the LOP at 12 1/2". He used it like that through age 14.
If it's front heavy, pull the butt plate, drill some holes and add a pound of lead,, the overall rifle might be heavier but it'll balance better.

I also put together a Jukar kit for a lady friend, knowing how front heavy those can be I cut 3" off the front of the barrel and re-crowned.
There's nothing carved in stone that you have to leave a 2nd hand bargain rifle exactly to factory spec. There are lot's of options.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Not knowing the actual size of your grand daughter, it's hard to say for sure but I participate in a twice yearly shoot here in Texas for high school kids. Most of them or 4H or FFA but it's open to all kids. We get our share of somewhat small young ladies through our group. We use a long Pedersoli Frontier and a smaller T/C Greyhawk, both .50'd. We use a standard load of 60 grains FFFg and a patched .490" ball. It's a compromise, but it's accurate in both rifles and plenty of power for slamming the 100 yard steel boar. I've noticed it's the really small girls, those who don't look like they weigh 80 pounds with their pockets full of buckshot and fishing sinkers, who choose the long rifle and come back for seconds or thirds if there's time. Either would take down a deer, as would a .45, but it's accuracy way over power and always will be with muzzle loaders. Good luck and I hope she's brings home the bacon...or venison in this case!

 

[OBX-TXN]

Well it so happens I had to bring a motorcycle to Raleigh for service yesterday so I'm staying with my son right now. Granddaughter is 5'6" and 115 pounds w/o an ounce of fat though she says she's a bit weak because of injuries in a motorcycle crash that resulted in sprained ankle, knee and dislocated elbow. Sling just came off her arm last week ...

It's been my experience with kids to let them practice with a lighter load ... then for me to re-sight the gun with a hunting load. None of my sons (3) ever noticed the increased recoil hunting ... they were to excited with having shot a deer ...

When I was getting Jenny ready to hunt with the youth .243 I had her first transition from her 10/22 to my M4 .5.56 (I have an HBAR but the LOP was too much for her then)... then shoot the .243 w/ cheap 70 gr rounds then hunt with 100 gr. (The easiest way to deal with "flinch" is to never let it start IMNHO.)

 

[mooman76]

Traditions and CVA both made several models that were pretty light yet suitable for deer hunting. You could probably pick one up cheap second hand. Just food for thought.

 

[Kansas Jake]

Excellent plan with kids and not developing a flinch.

 

[don hepler]

White Mt. carbines are light and reasonable on the price, in some locations. Many were 1 in 20 twist. I have one cut down into a pistol and it shoots a round ball with 50 grs. of powder, pretty darn good. I rest it against my face and so far, no teeth missing.

Cherokee's and Seneca's are the best, but are bringing some high prices. I have both but in 32 and 36. Neither are for sale.

I don't think it would be all that difficult, to duplicate one, if you could find a used stock.

 

[shdwlkr]

Best thing to do is take her to a store that has a few muzzle loaders and let her handle them and decide which one fits her best, feels good to her and she would really like to shoot.
You can load almost any muzzle loader down to get her used to it and slowly increase the charge.
Yes TC Seneca and Cherokee are great but so would a Hawken in .45 caliber and she would have a muzzle loader she could possibly hunt deer with if she decides too.
Best in my opinion are TC, followed by lyman, then Pedrosoli( spelling is wrong)
Good luck finding and teaching her how to really shoot and handle a firearm