Thompson Hawken nipple and ignition reliability

[Griz44Mag]

OK, I bought the gun used, and after 2 shots had ignition failure. After carefully examining everything, especially the nipple, I think the previous owner may have used the wrong part. I had picked up a spare nipple made by Thompson, and it is a little shorter and looks like it may be a bit wider. The threads are definitely on the TC made part. When the hammer is laid on the nipple now, it is a bit lower due to the shorter nipple. How much difference is there in the #10 and #11 parts?
The flash holes in both of the nipples seems really tiny, I would think the flash that gets through there should be a lot bigger. Has anyone drilled them out to get more flash?

That said, after a few shots with the new nipple, I again had some ignition failures. Since I am new to the world of black powder and this was my first range session, I could use some advise on getting better reliability with the system. BTW, I am using GOEX 2f powder and CCI percusion caps.

Griz44Mag
(T/C Hawken - 50 cal)

 

[coloradoclyde]

If your gun is a 50 cal...First I would switch to 3fff powder.
Second, did you clean all the oil out of the barrel and patent breech before loading the first shot? If there was any oil left in the breech it will turn into hard carbon blocking the flame channel when fired.
Third, There is a big difference in nipples from manufacturer to manufacturer... Yes I have drilled them out. 1-2 number sizes larger...I also recommend a hot-shot brand nipple.

Fourth, Make sure you remove the nipple and pump water through the patent breech when cleaning.

Fifth, Some cap brands like Remington have been known to plug the nipple after being fired.

Sixth how far does the nipple thread into the breech......too far and it can but up against the breech, becoming fouled more easily.

 

[Idaho Ron]

I am new to the world of black powder and this was my first range session, I could use some advise on getting better reliability with the system. BTW, I am using GOEX 2f powder and CCI percusion caps.

Griz44Mag
(T/C Hawken - 50 cal)

If you haven't seen my video I would recommend you watch it.

https://youtu.be/ibU-5uCuy_I

 

[Griz44Mag]

I haven't, and I will!

 

[Griz44Mag]

If your gun is a 50 cal...First I would switch to 3fff powder.
Second, did you clean all the oil out of the barrel and patent breech before loading the first shot? If there was any oil left in the breech it will turn into hard carbon blocking the flame channel when fired.
Third, There is a big difference in nipples from manufacturer to manufacturer... Yes I have drilled them out. 1-2 number sizes larger...I also recommend a hot-shot brand nipple.

Fourth, Make sure you remove the nipple and pump water through the patent breech when cleaning.

Fifth, Some cap brands like Remington have been known to plug the nipple after being fired.

Sixth how far does the nipple thread into the breech......too far and it can but up against the breech, becoming fouled more easily.

I appreciate the information and the help. I did not give the rifle a full hot water and soap bath before taking it out the first time. At this point, I think that was probably a mistake. It still shot very well, was just not as reliable as I felt it should have been. I ordered some more supplies today, among them the recommended nipples. I'll pick up 3f powder next time I get to the LGS in our area that carries it. When I cleaned it tonight I did remove the nipple and used boiling soapy water to pump through it and did a thorough cleaning of the whole thing. I'll see how it does at tomorrows 100 yard session. I am starting to get excited about doing some BP hunting. I am really enjoying this so far.
Griz44Mag

 

[Eddie Southgate]

Make sure the cap fits the nipple correctly , Flush . If you fail to fire on the first try but fires on the second attempt you either need another brand or size of cap. I switch all my guns that use 1/4-28 nipples to the nipple that Dixie or Track of the wolf sells that uses a Musket cap . I almost never have a FTF with these .

Eddie

 

[fishmusic]

Do you swab between shots? This is sometimes a cause as it pushes fouling down to block the fire channel. I have had this happen but I didn't want to give up swabbing. My cure was recommended to me on this forum. If you swab, cut down the diameter of the jag you use to swab . This allows the fouling to be captured, for the most part, when you pull the jag out. Less fouling goes into the breach to clog or block the fire channel.

 

[roadgrader]

Are you wiping betwen shots What are you using for patch lube It may be blocking the flash hole. Stacey

 

[Griz44Mag]

I did swab between shots. I used a patch slightly moistened with alcohol. Two strokes followed by a dry, 2 strokes. At my next session I'll see how it goes, maybe removing the nipple to see whats under it. Maybe I'll carry an air can and blow it out between shots? I am really starting to believe that I did not get the channel clean enough before starting. There are a number of things suggested, all of which I will address until I find that happy place where everything works as it should.

Griz

 

[Griz44Mag]

A patch slightly moistened with alcohol, followed by a dry one.

 

[nkbj]

Sounds like the narrow part of the breech is getting clogged up during swabbing the barrel.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Everyone has their own ramming technique....But I swab with 2 patches.... and the second patch gets rammed hard and fast to push air out the nipple hole ensuring the channel is clear....Sometimes, depending on the circumstances I squirt a little alcohol or M.A.P. solution down the barrel first....

I also flip the first patch over so it get run down twice.

Don't forget to **** your hammer and remove the spent cap so air can exit freely before cleaning.

 

[necchi]

I am really starting to believe that I did not get the channel clean enough before starting.

Yup, many ML are sold because the owner can't figure out the "clean fire channel" thing and
"I always have mis-fires".
So they give up and dump it,,Cheap.
Folks that do that are wonderful for us folks that know what's going on.
Buying an ML with a fouled fire channel can be a bane or blessing depending on experience.
So you do the best you can to clear that fire channel, by all means replace the nipple and keep us posted.
By the way,, there is no magic/special/end of all best nipple,, try to find one that say's Red-hot or Hot-shot,, anything but a factory nipple in 1/4x28 will work just fine.

 

[don hepler]

As it pertains, to the different nipples, it was quite common to replace a stock nipple with a "Hot Shot" nipple. The replacement nipple is a little longer and should have a very tiny cross hole in it.

Also, many of the replacement nipples varied in length.

I always use a tiny dab of anti-seize on the threads of a nipple and remove and clean it, each time that I use the rifle. I always start the nipple, by hand, to lesson the chances of cross threading the nipple hole. Then just snug it down. This will reduce wear and tear on the threads.

A scraper should be used to clean the bottom of the breech area, along with the regular recommended cleaning, advice.

 

[Zonie]

The smaller hole thru the nipple is supposed to be small.

It is what keeps the high pressure in the barrel from blowing your hammer back, which can damage the lock.

Find some old fashioned pipe cleaners. The kind pipe smokers use to clean their pipe stems.
These are abailable at some drug stores, all tobacco stores and a lot of hobby shops. (Women get a kick out of making little twisted animals and things using them.)

Remove the nipple from the gun and dunk the pipe cleaner in some rubbing alcohol or water.

Now, work it down thru the flame channel, pushing and pulling it in and out a few times.
(When it's in, you should be able to see it at the bottom of the bore if you have a good flashlight to light things up in there.)

The pipe cleaner will scrub the fouling out.

In case no one mentioned it to you, also, keep the hammer at half **** with no cap or cap fragments on the nipple when you load.

Doing this will allow the new powder to blow back thru the flame channel to the bottom of the nipple when you load the gun.

With the powder blown right under the nipple, it doesn't take much to set it off and fire the gun.

 

[Griz44Mag]

The smaller hole thru the nipple is supposed to be small.

It is what keeps the high pressure in the barrel from blowing your hammer back, which can damage the lock.

Find some old fashioned pipe cleaners. The kind pipe smokers use to clean their pipe stems.
These are abailable at some drug stores, all tobacco stores and a lot of hobby shops. (Women get a kick out of making little twisted animals and things using them.)

Remove the nipple from the gun and dunk the pipe cleaner in some rubbing alcohol or water.

Now, work it down thru the flame channel, pushing and pulling it in and out a few times.
(When it's in, you should be able to see it at the bottom of the bore if you have a good flashlight to light things up in there.)

The pipe cleaner will scrub the fouling out.

In case no one mentioned it to you, also, keep the hammer at half **** with no cap or cap fragments on the nipple when you load.

Doing this will allow the new powder to blow back thru the flame channel to the bottom of the nipple when you load the gun.

With the powder blown right under the nipple, it doesn't take much to set it off and fire the gun.

I pulled the nipple and grabbed a bore camera.
Interesting. I know it's clear after the cleaning I gave it when I got home today. I will blast the oil out with ElectraClean before the next outing, that way I know it will be oil free and dry.

bore and nipple views

 

[necchi]

Nice, but pretty fuzzy photos.
Ok, get a new nipple as per advise here.
Clean and de-grease the new nipple before you use it.
When you toss the main charge down,, lift the rifle and slap it next to the lock/breech area so the charge settles into the fire channel,,
Maybe this pdf will help; http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/Shooting_TC_Guns.pdf

 

[coloradoclyde]

Before you install the new nipple, you might want to open up the old one 1 or 2 number sizes and give it a try....I have had to do this with several guns... if you do, use a drill press. those little bits are easy to break when hand drilling and you don't want to oversize the hole.

Also I bought some nipples once (don't remember where now) and the nipple holes where extremely small....they would not fire reliably in any gun.

If you buy a new nipple, get a Hot-shot nipple.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Nice, but pretty fuzzy photos.

For a 6 dollar e-bay special from China, I can take a bit of fuzzy. :grin: New nipples are ordered!
Been watchin a lot of videos today. Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks?

Griz

 

[necchi]

Before you install the new nipple, you might want to open up the old one 1 or 2 number sizes and give it a try

Why? Did you not read this thread? Is he stuck 785 miles from a store and/or have no internet?
How big should the hole be?
What's a number size? How can a person determine what "number size" they have before they know how to go up one size? And how does that correlate to a drill bit size? What should it be? 028,.032, .038--.050? Number 1? Number 2?

Also I bought some nipples once (don't remember where now) and the nipple holes where extremely small....they would not fire reliably in any gun.

Well that's helpful, Let's hope he doesn't get one of those.

If you buy a new nipple, get a Hot-shot nipple.

Hhmm,