Thoughts on a back up gun

[kmolett]

My uncle and cousin just got back from Canada hunting black bear and moose. They used modern rifles. I think I could kill both moose and black bear with my .54 longrifle. I would like to have some type of backup gun just in case. I am sure I would have someone else in the party that was armed, but I would like to have the peace of mind that I had the final shot before the angry black bear/angry moose/startled grizzly bear made a snack of me.

I was thinking of one of the short muskets on the mvtc website. Maybe the ships carbine in .75 caliber with a 26 inch barrel of the steel blunderbuss in .73 caliber with 18 inch barrel. Sitting fox muzzleloaders also has some cool blunderbuss's.

I am afraid if I tried to use a pistol as a back up I would not have the accuracy I would need until the critter gets way to close for comfort. Thoughts?

 

[BrownBear]

I share your concern about the need for accuracy in a backup. I was a competitive "action pistol" shooter for a lot of years and am still pretty fast and accurate with heavy handgun loads. Yet I don't have much faith in my ability to stop a big Kodiak with a pistol. Guys that buy them and don't learn to shoot them really fast and accurate are simply whistling in the dark in my book. The tradeoff is that handguns are a whole lot more portable.

I'm not sure I'd want to invest as much weight and bulk as you propose in a "backup" gun though. You're likely to be leaving it in camp before long, and it won't do you any good there. That's based on personal experience accumulated over 35+ years in brown bear country.

That also runs head on into the problem of having a backup that's only a one-shooter. In all the accounts I know of (talking directly with the shooter and not reading it in the newspaper) the first shot almost never does the job. You're dealing with adrenaline in a charge, and that first shot usually goes wild, even if you manage to settle down for subsequent shots. If you're bound and determined to carry a backup in case of charges, I'd be much more inclined to carry a pump 12 gauge for similar bulk and weight along with multiple shot capabilities.

Not so much worried about charges, so much as quick follow-up shots? I'd practice with your gear, maybe incorporating speed loaders or loading blocks and forgetting the backup arm. You'll get surprisingly fast for followups, even if you aren't nearly so prepared for charges.

That's all based on my personal gear, experience, terrain and interviews. Your mileage will almost certainly be different.

 

[Rikeman]

Glock 21 :grin:

Carries easy and holds 14 rounds. Does not hold true to traditional hunting but I have no desire to be traditionally eaten! LOL

If I am hunting in a group, I will take my Colt Walker, but if I am going to be alone, I have more confidence in getting off the killing shot with my Glock.

 

[laufer]

... Yet I don't have much faith in my ability to stop a big Kodiak with a pistol. ...

good point, does anybody have any data how many people saved their ars w/ pistols when charged by a brown bear?

 

[crockett]

Are you talking Canada???I didn't think pistols were part of the deal up there. PM Rusty 54- I think he is in ALB.

If you want to be PC and have something to stop a charge- I'd go with a s/s double barrel shotgun with a sling. Carry it on your back while hunting with the rifle (that's a lot to tote around) Prince Maximilian in 1832, on the upper Missouri, has a sling on his s/s shotgun.

 

[jbg]

I have been told that if one plans on shooting a grizzly bear with a pistol, it is best to file the front sight down first. That way it won't hurt as much when the bear shoves it up your butt.

 

[Bountyhunter]

You might pay attention to what the guides do. They often have to follow up some pilgrim and finish the job. From what I have seen and from the guys I have spoken with, they always go in two or more guys with 12 ga Pumps with slugs. After you have shot your wad, then reality sets in and it is 2008, and you might have a wounded bear, and that sucker would love nothing more than to catch you in the weeds and maul the life out of you. Did I mention 12 guage Pump with slugs? There is often a very thin line between romantic and stupid.

When I hunt bear in Mora County, I use my .54 allright, and I carry a .54 pistol in my belt, but my bud carries a .338 Weatherby. Especially so if I get a chance at Alaska. Eric is goin along and so is that Weatherby. I'm not at all ashamed to have him anchor something I couldnt.

 

[Walks Alone]

The question was posed for in a hunting situation, as in a wounded bear (or moose) charging after the shot. I side with Brown Bear completely in that few hunters would have what it takes to stop them with a pistol - any pistol, or any rifle for that matter in most up close situations. At muzzle loader ranges even a mortally wounded bear would close the distance in precious few seconds. They are scary fast when they have an agenda, even at modern firearm distances.

Folks who work/live around and deal with big bears on a daily basis can't be wrong, and their backup for bears of choice is a repeater shotgun shooting slugs or balls. For non-hunting encounters pepper spray has proven itself as the choice to these same folks.

Just my opinion, but I've been there many times. For years I carried various hand cannons when I spent so much time alone hiking in the high backcountry of Yellowstone and in the surrounding mountains of ID, WY and MT - all prime grizzly habitat. I carried heavy 44MAG's and 454 Casull's and thought I was prepared. What a joke. I had many in my face grizzly encounters those years, and in none of them would I have been able to save the day with the heat I was packing. And none of these bears had a serious agenda either (as in wounded). They were just too close, too fast and without prior warning, often at only a few feet. I was extremely lucky that every time the bear's backed down to a big profile presented, loud calm voice, no eye contact and when they relaxed a slow retreat. Had dozens of black bear, moose, elk and buffalo encounters too those years from up close to too close for comfort, but didn't consider them serious. Silly me. I didn't learn about pepper spray until later BTW or that is what I would have been packing.

You'd be way ahead to know your ML, both your and it's abilities well enough to make the first (only) shot count, have a trusted partner back you up with something they are capable of doing the job with, and leave the romance of a fast draw from the hip to save the day to your dreams. Your, and your partners life may depend on it.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Pump shotgun loaded with 1 oz slugs. Probably also something to be said for a levergun in .450 Marlin or .444 Marlin.

If you want to stick with muzzleloader a 12 bore percussion with a single 0.715" patched ball.

A legendary story: a hunter was asking a guide if a .357 Magnum was a good back-up pistol for Kodiak bear. "Sure" said the guide. "Just shoot yourself in the head with the sixth shot so you won't have to suffer the mauling of just making him damn mad with the first five."

Interesting to note I read somewhere (Chapstick?) that African guides prefer the pump shotgun when tracking a wounded leopard.

 

[rabjr]

You really can't beat a pump 12 gauge in this situation.

 

[longcruise]

Note the post pointing out the legalities of a handgun in Canada. Not sure what the rules are for Canadian citizens but for US citizens it's a flat no no.

The 12 gauge pump is the best suggestion, IMO. But, if you are carrying both your .54 and the 12, the chances are that you would not have time to bring the 12 to bear (pun intended ). Bears are very fast and agile animals they can get from A to B so fast it will shock you. I've had bears come at me but fortunately they were bluffing. If they had been serious I would not be typing this now. :shocked2: If you are truly concerned, I'd have a second person to be back up with the 12.

 

[bigbore442001]

I would not worry one bit about needing a back up firearm while hunting moose or black bear in Canada. One good shot in the right place will put them down. There are too many war stories about such things.

 

[Rancocas]

I would not worry one bit about needing a back up firearm while hunting moose or black bear in Canada. One good shot in the right place will put them down. There are too many war stories about such things.

I agee. I hunt our local black bear with a .50, but old David Crockett is known to have taken dozens of black bear with just a .40. For moose, I would want at least a .54
I don't worry about black bears or moose. However, grissly bears are another animal entirely. Forget about a handgun. Have a buddy with you who is carrying a .375 H&H magnum.

 

[kmolett]

The situation that I would be in would be me with my .54 to hopefully shoot the bear at a distance and then a back up flinter. Probablly a smoothbore in say .75 cal like the muskatoon on the sittiing fox muzzleloaders web page. I would definately have some people with me that had high powered rifles or shotguns wth slugs. I am just trying to find the best flinter for a back up.

I also found out that there is a ton of red tape getting pistols into Canada so I would have to be taking a rifle.

 

[BrownBear]

But, if you are carrying both your .54 and the 12, the chances are that you would not have time to bring the 12 to bear (pun intended ). Bears are very fast and agile animals they can get from A to B so fast it will shock you.

I agree. I've been charged half a dozen times or so over the years, and it happens so fast you don't really soak it all up till it's already over. If you have time for even one aimed shot, it probably isn't a sure-thing charge. They do lots of bluff charging among themselves, and with each other they get right into swatting range before stopping. I'm not waiting that long to decide if it's a bluff, but all I've experienced stopped at 20 feet or so. They can close that distance in a single hop, so multiple shots before they hit you are pretty theoretical and more than you can probably hope for.

Now, wounded bears are a different story altogether. I pal around with several old time bear guides and have had the pleasure of hunting with a number of them on their own personal hunts. Great guys, long on experience and common sense.

The concensus is that a charge can happen, but they don't usually let clients shoot while the bear is facing them. Bears can light out on a dead run when hit, usually right in the direction they are pointed at the time they're hit. If the bear is pointed somewhere else but at the client they can avoid "charges" altogether. Their job if the first shot doesn't drop a bear is to do the anchoring as fast as they can.

While a shotgun would be dandy at very close range in the brush when following up a wounded bear, in fact the guides try to keep them out of the brush. The concensus among them is that the 375 H&H is about ideal for a backup gun for a mix of power, penetration and flat trajectory, but the various 416 versions are catching on fast.

Flat trajectory?

They want to keep hitting that bear as long as it is in sight, and a whole lot more finishing shots happen at 300 yards and beyond than at 30 feet. And the vast majority are poop chute shots.

I'd sure want someone standing at my shoulder for backup when I shot a bear that wasn't charging. I'd like them there in a charge, too. While a shotgun will be dandy for very close work, it's going to fail miserably if it's on your shoulder when you need it or if you need to anchor a wounded bear headed for the next county.

For me hunting backup is only going to be effective if it's in steady hands standing right next to me--- and aimed at the bear with the safety off at the moment I pull the trigger on my ML. And it's going to be in a powerful enough and flat shooting caliber to keep that bear from reaching the thick brush if it takes off after I shoot. Keeping a wounded bear out of the brush in the first place is the best way to avoid charges.

 

[Headhunter]

I have hunted all kinds of places with either Sharps or Muzzleloader all BY MYSELF, no guide, no companion. If your hunting right (Highly Mobile on your feet), you won't be carrying another gun period. Backup guns are too heavy no matter what you carry. You will end up leaveing it in camp anyway.

Carry a good knife, survival stuff and fire starting material and be compitent with your rifle. The last thing in rough country that you need to worry about is bears and mooose trying to hunt you down and kill you. Step on a stick or let them wind you and they will run off anyways.

The weather will kill you quicker than any bear. Carry only what you need, and keep it light enough that you will CARRY IT. Hunt smart, pay attention and don't run up on a "Dead" animal.

Any man on this site that hunts or has hunted in the mountains will tell you......

The first day of hunting you realize you are carrying too much manure you don't need.

The Second day you take half as much manure. But then realize you are still packing WAY more than what you need.

By the third day, you are narrowed down to Just what you need and it will easily fit in a very manageable small pack or fanny pack.

By the 4th day, you get used to your enviornment, you muscles quit aching and you become self sufficient.

Its a lot easier, and you will have more fun if you lighten you load right off the bat. Don't be stupid and leave essential equipment behind.

A Backup gun is not essential equipment.

HH

 

[Headhunter]

I got to thinking about this back-up gun thing and I emailed one of my good friends that has hunted dangerous game more than anyone I know.

This is our conversation.....


Hey Tom,

As a VETERAN hunter that has SUCESSFULLY hunted dangerous game and has hunted in Dangerous Game country, Have you EVER felt the need for a Back-Up Gun of any kind?

Josh,

In all 5 trips to Alaska, smack in the middle of grizzly / brown bear country, we always cooked our meals in the tents. The thought is, if a grizzly shows up in camp ..... Good, we won't have to pack the heavy b@stard's pelt too far.

I keep a piece in my truck, but that's fer two legged vermin.

Tom

Go and have a good time, Packin light is the way to go. Thats what I say.

HH

 

[Greenmtnboy]

... Yet I don't have much faith in my ability to stop a big Kodiak with a pistol. ...

good point, does anybody have any data how many people saved their ars w/ pistols when charged by a brown bear?

I feel Brown Bear is the one to go to for Grizz advise.
Wile guiding in AK I did have the unfourtinate position of having to kill a young four year old that had my boss pinned to the ground I shot it at point blank with my 44 flat top with a 300 grn solid and 24 grns of H110 which is a smokin load.
I found the bear twenty min later doing the bob and weeve so I dispatched him with a shot to the brain.
My initial shot double lunged the bear with full penitration. Twenty min is long time to die for any double lunged animal but it was still spring time and I think IMHO that the bear's heart rate was still pritty slow after hibernation.
What I learned is, if this was a ten foot bear my boss would be dead and depending on which way the bear ran after I shot I could have been in real danger.
I belive in bear spray than a big round after that.
If you want to go primitive get a howda pistol 50 cal and shoot conical solids, leave the pure lead at home.
I have been false charged a total of eight times, It sucks, you know it's prabably a false charge but it still scares the hell outta ya.
spray first shoot second, have a back up buddy with a 45-70 or 480 marlin guide gun that knows how to use it.
Remember costal or river Brown bears (for the most part) are more dosile than interior Grizzlies because of their food soarse or lack of it.
Canada won't let you use hand guns so bring a friend with another rifle.
I hunted Boo in Canada but NEVER alone and was ALWAYS aware of my back side.
:hatsoff:

 

[Barney]

This picture shows another perspective on the grizzly that attacked Ron J. Leming on Sept. 12 on the South Fork outside Cody. His father Ron G. Leming killed the attacking bear with a bow shot.

:thumbsup:

Couldn't get the picture to come up :cursing:

 

[Shifty]

Hey , Barney sure would like to see that picture. will be visiting Wy and Idaho in Nov.