Thoughts On Flyers

[okawbow]

Fliers are shots that hit well outside of what was a good, tight group for several shots, that cannot be explained by a flinch or pull, etc.

Most common cause for fliers is a blown or cut patch. Defective ball cause fliers also.

 

[Skychief]

Thanks okawbow. Never heard of them, let alone experienced them.

Skychief :wink:

 

[Stumpkiller]

If the ball wasn't spinning in its flight toward the target. the varing weights would cause it to hit higher or lower.

I believe it to be the case that varying weights will cause balls to hit higher or lower even when spinning.

I believe Issac Newton would back you up on that, Spence.

Energy/mass/velocity and all that stuff.

Spinning or not the added mass uses more of the available energy to get moving. Change the mass but keep the energy(powder charge) the same and they will have different trajectories. Period.

Might be small . . . but it will be.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Anyone want to discuss the vector aspects of angular momentum ?..... :grin:

 

[George]

Remember that old illustration about shooting a bullet and dropping one at the same time, they will hit the ground at the same time. No velocity/energy/spin is specified because as far as the drop caused by gravity is concerned, none of that matters.

Gravity ignores spin.

Spence

 

[coloradoclyde]

Remember that old illustration about shooting a bullet and dropping one at the same time, they will hit the ground at the same time.

Spence

Doesn't that only work in a vacuum ?

 

[George]

Never thought about it, but probably not. Identical bullets falling through the same air should drop at the same rate.

Mythbusters did it on live TV. :grin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF_zv3TCT1U

Spence

 

[coloradoclyde]

But, their test proved my point.....there was a difference....Had they increased the distance (drop elevation) further, the variance would have also increased.

Poor science on their part I think....

 

[George]

It's TV.

Pretty close for a couple of amateurs.

Spence

 

[coloradoclyde]

Or far away....it all depends on how you look at it....

Maybe the difference encountered by the mythbusters can be attributed to a flier... :wink:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well that's a basic physics law which deals with a ball dropped ↓ and one launched perpendicular to the first ball thus → , but when shooting we are normally talking about trajectories that are fired at an upward angle ↗ (though not as dramatic as the symbol that I used :wink: ) It was proved by Galileo and various other scientists over the years.

The effect of gravity resulting in "drop" is one of time and distance, and what Stumpkiller is referring to is the change in velocity changes the flight-time, and thus gravity has longer to effect the ball-flight.

So in other words, if ball A takes 1 second to hit the target, and ball B moving slower takes 2 seconds to hit the same target, then ball B will have dropped farther when it hits since gravity had more time to take effect.


LD

 

[Dr5x]

Stumpkiller,

Being a bit humble for good reasons, I hesitated a year before my announcement that Flyers are caused and Can be prevented. Because of the several folk who feel that centrifugal forces to not apply to them I consulted my Sniper rifle gunsmith for his thoughts. Here is a slightly cleaned up quote I Got back from him.

"A rule propounded in First year physics.
Centrifugal force (known as angular momentum) is induced by off balance rotation.
Out of balance forces arevresolved perpendicular to the axis of rotation.
In ordinary English this means that the off balance balls in an ever increasing helical spiral as they fly from the muzzle opening groups as you well know

Those arguing have little understanding of the quality of their balls.

End of quote.



Whenever you load and fire a muzzleloading rifle or any rifle you are abiding by a whole hell of a lot of laws of physics..

I am ignorant of most of those rules but am aware of certain things that will happen every time.

The old timers never had a rapidly turning off balance wheel to give them a clue to this phenomenon but the fact that it exists is unavoidable.

The firing of a cannon gave the inventor of the steam engine his original idea that ended with a changed civilization.

 

[stubshaft]

For plinking I don't bother weight balls. FOr hunting or to shoot small groups every one gets weighed.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Those arguing have little understanding of the quality of their balls.

This argument has gone on so long I forgot what we were actually arguing....

There is no denying that any variance in weight or roundness is a variable and accuracy is all about the elimination of variables.

However....The thing to argue, is the level of impact each variable has on one's shooting.

Weighing balls can give a top level shooter an advantage....BUT!.. Weighing balls will not make you a top level shooter alone.

 

[azmntman]

Agree....but, before I started weighing balls I wasn't a top level shooter, :slap:

 

[nkbj]

Rifle projectiles have forces acting upon them to fly in a spiral of increasing diameter, off balance or not. Being off balance increases this.
In the 1850's the US government experiments with those newfangled smallbore .58 caliber minie guns determined that using the slower twists lessened the effect.

 

[Dr5x]

II didn't say that the "arguers" had little understanding of their lead balls. That was part of the quote I got.

I also don't think we were arguing. Just comparing thoughts on a little discussed subject.

I don't like to quote Laws of Physics I'd rather say that weighing out your lead balls can in my opinion and experience had caused me to eliminate Flyers over more than a two year period with almost daily sessions at the range if the weather permitted.

I like to offer my thoughts with the hope that someone might consider them and act or not act upon them

If whatever you are doing gives you tight groups regardless of how you methods might vary from mine, stick with it but write everything down so you can examine the cause if you groups begin to loosen and open up.

A shooter who is happy with his or her accuracy will continue in the sport and together with others continue the sport nation wide.

There is a large political movement who want to stop this activity and if they win we lose and will be reduced to the ball games .

Dutch

 

[okawbow]

Those arguing have little understanding of the quality of their balls.

This argument has gone on so long I forgot what we were actually arguing....

There is no denying that any variance in weight or roundness is a variable and accuracy is all about the elimination of variables.

However....The thing to argue, is the level of impact each variable has on one's shooting.

Weighing balls can give a top level shooter an advantage....BUT!.. Weighing balls will not make you a top level shooter alone.

Yes, but anything a shooter can do to reduce the size of his groups, and make his gun more accurate, will help him be a better shot.
I have heard offhand shooters say they don’t worry about accuracy too much because they wobble around anyway. However, if one rifle will shoot a 1” group at 50 yards, and another will only do a 2” group; which one will score the best or hit the most squirrels?

I personally won’t tolerate an inaccurate gun. I will work at getting the best out of any rifle.

 

[Dr5x]

i don't think of myself as a top-level shooter because I did all my shooting Bench Rest.
To me a top level shooter or rifleman does his work offhand.

My interest has always been in getting the rifle to do its best without the wavering variable of the offhand stance.
The man you gave me the nudge to explore accuracy did all his impressive demonstrations shooting offhand

My instructional efforts are to get the rifle shooting its very best ABD THEN graduating offhand shooting knowing that any misses or variations in your group is your fault and NOT the rifle's.

Dutch

 

[coloradoclyde]

I think we are all agreeing on the fundamentals of accuracy and shooting....We're just arguing over the order of importance. Different strokes for different folks.... :v