Too much detail

[dave951]

Look at some of the old (19th C) IDEAL powder measures from John Barlow's company. Their rotor transferred a VOLUME of powder from the hopper to the receptacle below (cartridge paper tube, plastic Vial or even a brass unmentionable). HOWEVER they were fitted with a "knocker" -- in the UK the term "knockers" has another connotation ;-))) -- to settle the granules to aid consistency. In like manner when using a flask with my revolver (not allowed in some situations due to Elfin Safety) I close the nozzle with my forefinger, operate the shutter and "bump" the flask against my thigh 3 times to settle the load. In developing this system I did a lot of experimenting, weighing charges to see how consistent the loads were.

Whataever system we use to describe the load what we want is consistency -- ESPECIALLY in a match.

Bingo, he gets it. BTW, the Lyman 55 Ideal powder measure, the old orange one is equipped with a "knocker".

 

[longcruise]

An interesting experiment would be to see just how much the weight differencece really can vary within a given volume depending on tightness of the pack.

I've done the experiment and there is a difference. How much? I suggest that anyone who is interested should do the experiment themselves. I'm sure some will think the difference is enough to demand weighing and others will be surprised at how consistent volume measuring is.

 

[Okie Hog]

Did the measuring/weighing experiment a few times. Saw no need to weigh my charges.

 

[LME]

From lot to lot, even charges of the same weight might have different velocities. Please don't ask how I know

When dealing in competition shooting way back in the day we even wanted ammo made on a certain machine. When you used .22 cal targets rifles you were at the mercy of the ammo,no reloading! Black powder is so far removed from this it is funny. I don't know what target ammo sells for now but in the day we payed $15.00 for a box of 20. You bought ammo by the case just to get it from the machine you liked. I don't want to go through that hassle again. It is to anal for me now! This is one of the reason I chose Black powder. Now it appears that we are making black powder way to complicated to have any fun just like competition shooting was? I think we would enjoy our sport more if we all would lighten up just a tad!

 

[Stony Broke]

I've made my own measures for years...a separate one for each gun. I don't see any need to weigh load, tap loads into the measure, etc..... I start a measure and working with an adjustable measure start working it back and forth until they both hold the same volume. It really doesn't take me long and works great. I use things like modern empty cartridges and just keep shortening them until the proper load is reached. A guy then just fills it the same each time and bingo..you're at a point where every load is the same !

 

[TrapperDude]

I've done the experiment and there is a difference. How much? I suggest that anyone who is interested should do the experiment themselves. I'm sure some will think the difference is enough to demand weighing and others will be surprised at how consistent volume measuring is.

Did you variations of up to 5gr by weight, or was more in thr realm of 1-2gr?

 

[Stony Broke]

I have never weighed black powder.....volume is the only way as far as I'm concerned.

 

[shootrj2003]

So they revoke his license based on age? WOW! I knew a guy in my truck company was 85 still passing all physicals and tests,and he isn’t the oldest I’ve heard of.That’s age discrimination here.

 

[longcruise]

So they revoke his license based on age? WOW! I knew a guy in my truck company was 85 still passing all physicals and tests,and he isn’t the oldest I’ve heard of.That’s age discrimination here.

Some of those revocations are done by family.

 

[longcruise]

Did you variations of up to 5gr by weight, or was more in thr realm of 1-2gr?

I did this with a shear top brass measure set at 90 grains.

Comparison of powder by weight when measure is tapped and untapped before leveling the measure.

First, the 10 that were poured and sheared without tapping the measure

93.5
94.1
93.2
92.5
92.8
93.6
94.0
92.8
93.5
92.2

93.2 Average Weight
.63 Standard Deviation
1.9 Extreme Spread


Next, the ten that were tapped and then sheared

94.3
94.2
93.5
93.9
93.8
94.1
94.1
94.0
94.1
94.3

94.0 Average Weight
.25 Standard Deviation
.8 Extreme Spread

All can decide for themselves how important the differences are. I don't post these little experiments to make a point about anything. I do it for my own entertainment. I did the comparison of tapping (settling) the powder charge because I wanted to prove to myself that tapping the measure and settling the powder would be LESS accurate than pouring and shearing it off without tapping. As you can see, I ended up discarding my opinion.

One might expect that these results have converted me to tapping my measure. NOT! Too much trouble. Furthermore, it would take probably 50 shots fired from a vice to determine the difference if it could even be measured.

 

[waarp8nt]

Gotta love knockers!

 

[TrapperDude]

I did this with a shear top brass measure set at 90 grains.

Comparison of powder by weight when measure is tapped and untapped before leveling the measure.

First, the 10 that were poured and sheared without tapping the measure

93.5
94.1
93.2
92.5
92.8
93.6
94.0
92.8
93.5
92.2

93.2 Average Weight
.63 Standard Deviation
1.9 Extreme Spread


Next, the ten that were tapped and then sheared

94.3
94.2
93.5
93.9
93.8
94.1
94.1
94.0
94.1
94.3

94.0 Average Weight
.25 Standard Deviation
.8 Extreme Spread

All can decide for themselves how important the differences are. I don't post these little experiments to make a point about anything. I do it for my own entertainment. I did the comparison of tapping (settling) the powder charge because I wanted to prove to myself that tapping the measure and settling the powder would be LESS accurate than pouring and shearing it off without tapping. As you can see, I ended up discarding my opinion.

One might expect that these results have converted me to tapping my measure. NOT! Too much trouble. Furthermore, it would take probably 50 shots fired from a vice to determine the difference if it could even be measured.

Thanks for posting your findings. They were pretty enlightening. First of all, I didn't realize that weight in grains exceeds volume in grains. Second, tapping the measure really seems to give a more consistent weight, which isn't a huge surprise, given that eliminating air reduces variability.

With all of that being said, I have to agree with you that the consistency gained is not great enough to justify weighing the powder for most people's needs, mine included.

 

[Brokennock]

Thanks for posting your findings. They were pretty enlightening. First of all, I didn't realize that weight in grains exceeds volume in grains. Second, tapping the measure really seems to give a more consistent weight, which isn't a huge surprise, given that eliminating air reduces variability.

With all of that being said, I have to agree with you that the consistency gained is not great enough to justify weighing the powder for most people's needs, mine included.

I think comparison of volume to scale weight can vary from measure to measure, and depending on what powder is used. Mine seems to always weigh slightly on the light side with 2f Goex, but is a consistent 6 grains lighter when using 3f with the same volume measure and powder scale. Example, 3f powder charges poured from my horn into my "65 grain" measure generally weigh about 59 grains on the scale, "70 grain" measure charges weigh around 64 grains.

Question for those who tap the measure. If you tap it and it results in the powder settling below the top of the measure, do you add more? It would seem this would through things way off to the high side.

 

[TrapperDude]

I think comparison of volume to scale weight can vary from measure to measure, and depending on what powder is used. Mine seems to always weigh slightly on the light side with 2f Goex, but is a consistent 6 grains lighter when using 3f with the same volume measure and powder scale. Example, 3f powder charges poured from my horn into my "65 grain" measure generally weigh about 59 grains on the scale, "70 grain" measure charges weigh around 64 grains.

The manual for my Pietta Colt 1860 Army says to max out at 25gr, while my Uberti Remington NMA says 30gr. I was wondering why two different .44s would have different max recommmended loads, but someone here said that the Pietta recommendation could have actually referred to 30gr in weight. Your results would seem to confirm that.

 

[cynthialee]

I have a very particular set of steps in my loading routine. Not out of any superstition but each action is done in a specific fashion to optimize my shot and my confidence in my shot.
I got to have my powder settled good and each shot gets the exact same measure I tap it and make sure the measure is on mark.

Sure it slows me down a bit, but I get so few fail to fire I am stunned when it happens. And being slow and methodical helps keep my blood pressure stable, which it seems is an important thing now.

 

[Boston Bill]

Bingo, he gets it. BTW, the Lyman 55 Ideal powder measure, the old orange one is equipped with a "knocker".
View attachment 111594

My gray one also has a 'knocker' lol.

 

[oldwood]

Have used volume powder measures of my own design forever. Once filled , I sometimes , give it a bump to settle the powder inside , so I don't spill it while dumping a full level measure into the bore. I have an old age powder dump affliction , which ruins my loading consistency. Bad consistency , bad groups on the paper.

 

[J. Paul]

Bingo, he gets it. BTW, the Lyman 55 Ideal powder measure, the old orange one is equipped with a "knocker".
View attachment 111594

My first measure used 60+ years ago, bought my own 50+ years ago then found a used one 3 years ago for a spare.

 

[30coupe]

My gray one also has a 'knocker' lol.

Mine did too. I passed it on to my son as I no longer have any interest in loading suppositories. I do still like knockers though.

 

[longcruise]

Thanks for posting your findings. They were pretty enlightening. First of all, I didn't realize that weight in grains exceeds volume in grains. Second, tapping the measure really seems to give a more consistent weight, which isn't a huge surprise, given that eliminating air reduces variability.

With all of that being said, I have to agree with you that the consistency gained is not great enough to justify weighing the powder for most people's needs, mine included.

Yes it really doesn't make enough difference IMO. However, something that i think is worth a look is how these variations follow in much smaller charges. IOW, will it follow as a linear percentage OR will the actual weight difference remain the same? If it remains the same, the effect on consistency would be more significant. The only competitors i have met who religiously weigh charges are shooting pistols with very light loads.

Anyway, I won't be doing an experiment on it anytime soon, but would be interested in seeing results if someone else does it.