TOW Hawken Questions

[flat9999]

Hey all,
I'm new to BP building but decided to jump in with both feet and get a TOW Hawken .54 "kit". Along with several books and this website, I hope that very slow building will get me a nice looking rifle. I have roughly an hour a day of free time to work on it and imagine it'll take about a year to have it all finished-up
Couple of things that I am stumped on, and couldn't find the info in my books or online.
1. The trigger guard is attached to the trigger plate with a screw in back and by threading the front into the plate? What is a good size to turn it down to? The blueprint measures to about a 10-32 die, but doesn't this weaken the plate? Especially since you are also tapping for the forward tang bolt within an inch on the triggerguard.
2. I would like to bed the breach/tang/barrel the entire length of the stock, to seal it and add a little stability/strength. Not looking to be historically correct, but does it make sense to bed the entire length or just up to the first wedge key?
I'm sure I will have alot more questions and will post them when the time comes. Iv'e been at it for 2 weeks now and have just gotten past the part of filing down the larger casting marks from the brass pieces, this will be a long build.
Thanks in advnace for any help.

 

[Norskie]

Which trigger plate and trigger guard combination are you using? I assume you'll use one with a round lug in front that can be threaded and spun into your trigger plate. I would not worry about weakening the plate, since the threaded lug will fill the hole and support the plate.
I have bedded the breech/tang area and two inches around the barrel keys and got good accuracy. Not sure if bedding the whole channel would improve anything. Friend of mine bedded his entire channel because he mixed more compound than he intended. His half stock shoots about the same as mine.
Others with more experience will chime in.
Moose

 

[Herb]

Flat- 10-32 it is. I just got a TOW Kit Carson "kit" and the trigger post is not threaded. I have a 10-32 die, which I'll use. You can get one at your hardware store. This does not weaken the trigger plate, since there is no force against it except an upward pull from the tang bolts.

You can bed the stock. I'd do either just the tang area if you don't get a close fit, or all of it, not half way. Inlet as close as you can and keep the epoxy from showing. Wax up the metal to assure release. Be sure to fill the underlug inlet inside the stock with wax to prevent locking it in.

When you inlet the tang (hooked breech), super glue, epoxy, or soft solder the tang onto the breech plug, which should be fitted into the barrel. Bed this as a unit, makes a better fit. Heat the tang to separate it when done.

I've built five Bridger Hawkens, two from the stick (one a left handed .54) and three TOW kits. Just started another Kit Carson TOW kit, and another older inletted and shaped stock of uncertain origin, but of correct shape, and a .58 Green River barrel into a barrel-inletted fullstock for a flintlock. Am putting a .54 Green River barrel on the Carson kit and a .54 Green Mountain barrel on the other kit.

As you run into problems, you can post here for the generous help of experienced people or send me a private message.

Which rifle are you building, the Carson or Bridger?

 

[flat9999]

Thanks for the info. I am building the Carson. The triggerguard lug (as it comes) was roughly 5/16" . That had me worried about drilling such a large hole into the plate. I do have dies in 10-32 and will use one of them once I get the lug turned down a bit.
Since you have quite a bit of experience with these parts, is there anything that I should be looking-out for?
Thanks Again!

 

[bioprof]

Hmmmm. I built the same kit that you are building from TOW and I don't remember having to cut threads on the front stud of the triggerguard. I believe that the triggerguard that I got was already threaded. It was rough though as it was cast as threaded. You may want to look at their triggerguards as there may be another one that is easier to use.

 

Well, You started with one of the hardest kits there is to build, but take your time and ask questions, and things will work out. Unless you've made an error, there is really no need to bed a muzzleloader. They are not subjected to the same pressures, and vibrations that a modern gun is. They didn't bed the originals, so why waste time and epoxy on a nice Hawken. The tang, and keys hold the stock to the barrel. You have to reverse your thinking from them modern suppository guns. :haha:

Bill

Aspire to Inspire before you Expire.

 

[rabbit03]

Hello Flat9999, good to hear you got yourself a Hawken! :thumbsup:

I built the Jim Bridger myself and really like it alot. Herb has some good advice there for you. I am not that great at building yet, and as a result I don't usually get the barrel channel just right. So what I usually do is mix up some Devcon or other two part epoxy and just put a thin layer in the breach area and along the whole channel. Like you, I am more concerned with accuracy than PC for what I do so the epoxy doesn't bother me at all. In fact like Herb said if you do put some in don't let it get near the top of the barrel channel where it can be seen.

I usually put a layer of celophane along the entire barrel channel and then squeeze the barrel in the stock. Make sure though that the underlug holes are filled in with a wax or something so the epoxy will not get into or else :cursing: I might also add that when I do this I also slide the keys into the barrel and screw both tang screws into the trigger plate. But I don't screw these two screws in very tight so that there is still a bit of tightening to do once the epoxy hardens. The celophane is also put under the tang area. As a precaution I will leave the epoxy away (an inch or so) from the key ways or the tang screws when I bed it this way.

Do this at your own risk, as your results may vary from mine but I have done this twice now and each time I have a perfect fitting barrel with only a microscopic bit of clearence in my barrel to stock fit. I think the epoxy helps in making the rifle a bit more on the accurate side for the fact that it stabilizes the wood a bit and keeps any movement in different temps and humidity to a minumum.

Let's get some photos posted as you go along :thumbsup:

rabbit03

 

[rabbit03]

Hello Bioprof

I think I remember not having to thread mine either in fact I think the threads were real crisp also. I built the JB kit though, but guess that wouldn't make much of a difference since you say your kit was the same as his, the Carson.

I thought I would check the TOTW catalog but from the photos they all look unthreaded,


rabbit03

 

[Herb]

My trigger guard post is not threaded and it measures .185, closer to 3/16". I think I threaded one 1/4-28 once. No problem with the larger hole. You want the hole drilled in the trigger plate at exactly right angles to it, at a location that allows the bow to swing past the rear trigger as you turn it on. Then you screw in the trigger post and hope the guard comes up tight as it becomes parallel.

Another way to fasten it is, cut the post off, drill a hole for a 10-32 into the trigger plate, then through the trigger bow. Tap them. You can fasten a 10-32 1/2" round head bolt down from the top. Either leave the head on, or cut it off and solder into the plate.

Yes, there is something to check carefully. My stock came fully inletted, including for the buttplate. But this gave it a 14 1/4" length of pull. I can't use that. The plans Track sent you (and me) show a 13 3/8" length of pull, center of butt plate to the front trigger. But the stock they sent does not match the drawing.

Set the trigger in the inlet and hold the butt plate on. Measure the length of pull to the front trigger. The butt plate won't fit on, so you can measure to the end of the stock and add 1/4" for the butt plate. Also check to see if the inletting curve matches the butt plate.

This is too long a stock. The old Green River Rifle Works Hawken plans show a 13" LOP. Track's plan is almost identical to it. Also, The St. Louis Hawken Shop of Oak Harbor, WA has plans and they are also almost identical to GRRW's and Tracks, but have a 13 3/4" LOP.

Cutting this stock shorter is some work, but it is better to do it now than after you shoot the finished rifle and finally decide it is just too long. I wanted to cut mine off 1/2", but only did 3/8". Cut it right the first time, it is too much work to do it again. If the buttplate contour matches the stock inlet, good. If you want to cut it off 1/2", draw a pencil line parallel to the curve on both sides. Extend the flat for the return 1/2" forward. Draw a line across the comb, a little short. Saw across the line, and carefully cut the flat lines up to it. Chisel or rasp this hump down until the tang will set on it.

I used a 24 tpi hacksaw to cut the curved butt off. My butt plate did not match the inlet, so I had to draw the lines to match the butt plate. Then smoke the inside up, tap it straight on with a plastic mallet, and inlet it forward and down until it butts up against the top tang and the curved back. Inlet the toe plate (farther forward) and cut the toe of the butt plate to length. Mine is 4 3/4" high.

The Kit Carson stock they sent also has about 3/4" less drop at heel than their plans, or GRRW's or The Hawken Shop's plans. Nothing you can do about that. Page 367 of Track's catalog show an early Hawken flintlock whose LOP scales out at 14.5". That is ridiculous, few people can shoot that. The Kit Carson rifle on page 143 scales at 13.8" LOP.

Nice to see your questions here, we all learn from this.

 

[rogerpjr]

I'm not sure what trigger guard TOW is currently supplying with the kit. But I have built both a fullstock and halfstock J&S Hawken from parts mostly obtained from TOW. I threaded both front trigger guard lugs 1/4-28 and put either a 6-32 or 8-32 screw down into the rear curl. The guard I just got from Muzzleloader Builder's Supply is also sized where a 1/4-28 will be right. I think 10-32 for the front lug will be too small. I don't know how many times I've knocked my trigger guard against something and I'm not sure a 10-32 would have survived. The rear screw doesn't take as much shock, so the smaller size is okay. The trigger plates from most any maker are pretty thick and you don't have to worry about weakening them, they just sit there in the stock and hold the trigger parts and a couple of screws in place. The tang bolt should be a 10-32.