Trade gun photos please....

[Billy-by-gosh]

Here's a few pictures I have on hand, sorry for the more quality, taken 30-40 years ago. Cheap camera's were poor quality and old pictures add to the issue too. Several of these old guns my father collected back in the 1930's and 40's, history now ...

I always liked the picture of the comparison of our pre-1816 Sharpe to the late HBC Company (1950's gun). Their trade gun is just like an H&R single shot shotgun, but has the HBC stamps of a Barnett NW trade gun (top left hand picture).

Buck

Wow Buck, Thanks for posting!
Those pictures take me back to boyhood. We'd come down into town from the ranch for supplies, and Dad would take me to the barber. I loved going there because one entire wall of the shop was completely covered with original old trade guns and longrifles. He would let me touch and caress them but not take them from the pegs on the wall,
I could almost hear stories coming from their smell.
Great stuff!

 

[Hiverano]

I hear you and experienced similar times with the old guns (trade guns as well as other old guns). My father was a collector, rep. for several state groups that supported collectors and so on ...
Thank you for the memories ... Buck

 

[Hiverano]

Would you folks like me to post some more pictures like the side plates (Serpents) from different trade guns manufactures. Slight changes between the different builders as they had little information to go on per what the Boards Of Ordinances stated in their specs according to Charley Hanson and Curly G.

 

[Hiverano]

N.W. gun I made with an L&R Queen Anne lock . They are good locks and round face but JUST a hair small for a N.W. trade gun . In this pic it doesnt look bad though ... They will work though ...

The finish looks nice (correct for the gun) nice job,

Buck

 

[Hiverano]

Where on earth are y’all finding barrels so cheap?

You want expensive, get a custom barrel made like on the trade gun sold. Odd caliber, barrel stock straightened, bored and polished, breech end threaded, etc. .... Now you have a barrel that will perform as intended, all for $250.00.

 

[red grizzly]

Ohhh here we go, you fellers fanning the flame.

 

[dave61965]

Mine I picked up years ago, 20 gauge, 36” barrel.

 

[Polecat_Tom]

Would you folks like me to post some more pictures like the side plates (Serpents) from different trade guns manufactures. Slight changes between the different builders as they had little information to go on per what the Boards Of Ordinances stated in their specs according to Charley Hanson and Curly G.

Yes I would like to see them.
I believe I shot my tradegun with you one time with the Buckhorn Skinners way back when.

 

[#BPBReloadingFFL]

Museum of the fur trade...

What a shame all those guns sitting there just collecting dust.
SMH
I know they want to be adopted!

 

[Hiverano]

A LIST OF SOME OF THE BETTER-KNOWN MANUFACTURERS

AMERICA (In 1807, the Missouri Fur Company and a year later the American Fur Company appeared and along with them came the trade items and NW guns from Pennsylvania).

DUTCH (arms didn't last long, as trading was not what was expected with the cheaper Holland guns). Schuckard & Gebhard, importers of the Dutch, Belgian guns are seen but limited in numbers.

ENGLISH (traders appeared in the 1620's with guns, powder and shot for trade through the Hudson's Bay Company). Two Canadian trading companies labeled the gun “Hudson’s Bay Gun” and the “Mackinaw Gun”. Those being the Hudson’s Bay Company and the Mackinaw Company of Michilimackinac but still manufactured in England. The Southwest Company is another firm name seen from company records.

FRENCH (dates of 1680 to 1730 for the oldest types being introduced into the new world. Later on, the firm of Tulle was the gun of choice for French made guns).

SPANISH (arms had one firms name on the lock with another’s on the barrel, etc.)

A LIST OF SOME OF THE BETTER-KNOWN MANUFACTURERS

BARNETT BARNETT & SONS

BLAIR BOND

BRAIZER F. BRAIZER

BROOK BROOKS

CH & S CO. DALES

DAWES (same manufacturer DAWSE)

DERINGER DeHUFF

E & W BOND GEOTZ

GALTON GILL

GRICE KREPS

HAMPTON HOLLAND

HOLLIS HEYLIN

DICKERT HENRY & CO.

HEYLIN HENRY

HENRY & SON JONES

JOYNER KETLAND & CO.

KETLAND & ALLPORT KETLAND - WALKER & CO.

GHRISKEY LEMAN

LOWNDES MORRIS & GRICE

MOXHAM PARKER

PARKER FIELD & CO. ROLFE

R & R SUTHERLAND WHEELER

R. PRITCHETT R & W HOLLIS

SANDWELL & JOYNER SANDWELL

SARGANT & WILSON SHARPE

SPENSER & CO. SPIES & CLARK

SUTHERLAND SUTHERLAND & ANDERSON

TRYON & SON TRYON & CO.

TRYON, MERRICK & CO. TULLE

CHANCE WISE & CO.

W. GRICE WHATELEY

WHEELER & SON R & W WILSON & CO.

WILSON & CO. W. CHANCE & CO.

W. CHANCE SON & CO. WILLETS & HOLDEN

This is just to show a few of the firms involved in the manufacturing of the North West gun, some firms opened additional companies using family names. Several of the joint ventures were operating at the same time working on the same or different government contract.

For more detailed information on such activities contact The Museum of Fur Trade.

Some of the examples shown are guns available for viewing at: The Museum of the Fur Trade

Other examples are from private collections and are marked as such.

……. continued


Buck

​

 

[Hiverano]

Mine I picked up years ago, 20 gauge, 36” barrel.


View attachment 390195View attachment 390196View attachment 390197View attachment 390198View attachment 390199

There you go folks, here's a nice useable NW trade gun. I have had a half dozen of these guns over the years (used to hunt with shooting anything from grouse to buffalo). This barrel length and gauge is what you need.

Sold a 20 gauge NW gun to Charlton Heston's son (cast member) at Centennial and a 12 gauge Reb Brown (Bridger in this movie, later Captain America) at Centennial (TV show and they loved them).

 

[Hiverano]

An example of orders from the Commissioner of Indian Affairs:

DATE	QTY	GUN STYLE	COST
MAR. 12,1845	850	North West Guns	@ $5.50
JAN. 08,1847	731	North West Guns	@ $4.83
	50	North West Guns	@ $8.69
DEC. 11,1847	630	North West Guns	@ $4.63
DEC. 14,1848	650	North West Guns	@ $4.93
JAN. 30,1850	716	North West Guns	@ $5.87
JAN 03,1851	756	North West Guns	@ $5.57
DEC. 12,1853	489	North West Guns	@ $5.54
APR. 10,1855	700	North West Guns	@ $5.50

Just one manufacturer's inventory sheet.

This information was given to the author by Charles E. Hanson, Jr. at one of many meetings discussing what he would like to see in this book.

.

 

[Hiverano]

As promised - here you go folks.

The Serpent Sideplate

Next are a number photos of “serpents” on different contract firearms, most are typical in shape, size and style. Note the direction of the “dragon’s” head and fins as well as how the size of the loop and screw holes change from one period in time to another.

After talking to several knowledgeable people on the subject, I was informed that many of the surviving arms found where missing brass butt plates, trigger guards and serpents. The Native Americans liked brass and would make other items out of the mentioned pieces rather than have it go to waste on the firearm. After hearing this I have found several old photos of Indians wearing serpents around their necks and butt plates tacked on chests. As well as trigger guards flattened straight and used to hold the side of a trunk together.

WHATELEY side plate by Charles E. Hanson, Jr.

Blackfoot with breastplate of NW gun dragon side plates.

[Blackfoot Reserve, Alberta, Canada; circa-1889]

Notman Collection, McCord Museum, McGill University, Montreal, Ontario, Canada.​

Some researchers like Hamilton and Hanson have written that many of the NW Guns have not survived, because the local Indians used as many of the pieces as possible from damaged guns for a variety of uses. Usually locks were used for spare parts, but brass was turned into a material for decoration as seen above with this gentleman’s breastplate (even today many of the surviving NW Guns are missing their serpent-dragon side plates and butt plates). Barrels were ideal for making pipe tomahawks and fleshing tools by traveling blacksmiths, only one’s imagination controlled the usage of the damaged trade musket.

BARNETT side plate by Charles E. Hanson, Jr.

Early “Serpent” side plates:

HAMILTON NW GUN, c.1710-20.

Note the flatness of the side plate.

KETLAND NW GUN, c.1715.

Note the flatness of the side plate.

KETLAND NW GUN, c.1718-22.

Note the flatness and lack of detail on side plate.

GRICE NW GUN, c.1775.

Note the flatness of the side plate.

Later “Serpents” sideplates:

RICHARD WILSON NW GUN, c.1790-1800.

Note the more details with scales, turned head and fins.

ROBERT WHEELER NW GUN, c.1800-10.

Note the more details with scales, turned head and fins.

page one​

 

[Hiverano]

page two

WHATELY NW GUN, c.1810.
“Tecumseh Gun”

Note details with scales, turned head and fins.

ROBERT PRITCHETT NW GUN, c.1819

Note the more details with scales and smaller size of loops.

WHEELER NW GUN, c.1815-20.

Note details with scales and size of loops.

CH & S CO. NW GUN, c.1830-10.

Note details with size of loop.

BELGIAN NW GUN, c.1854.

Note details with size of loop.

Look at the cut down tradegun the Indian has. This artist (unknown to author) must have seen the “Yellowstone” or “Colorado Gun” at the Museum of the Fur Trade.


Enjoy, Buck

 

[Hiverano]

Yes I would like to see them.
I believe I shot my tradegun with you one time with the Buckhorn Skinners way back when.

Have shot with a boat load of folks at the club range, what's your birth name will probably remember.

 

[Hiverano]

While we are talking about NW Trade Guns have you guys ever thought about a matching pistol? I've had several but I'm not a pistol shooter and sold them.

But I had a beauty an original, 1800-1840 Sharpe flintlock until it was stolen a few years back.

“SHARPE” (1800-1840).

This beautiful flintlock pistol was stolen in one of our home moves back in 2015. There were five modern handguns and this antique pistol all six guns were missing. I reported this to the Lehi Police Department; they contacted Salt Lake Police Department as they didn’t have anyone that spoke Spanish. The movers were questioned with one of them leaving town the night before. Magickly the five missing modern handguns appeared on our front porch a couple days later. The Sharpe flintlock pistol was never seen again. The police thoughts were the modern guns have traceable serial numbers while the antique has just proof marks making it harder to prove if it was the missing gun.

Flat lock plate with line border and feather cluster design behind cock; with a crown over “NR” and marked “SHARPE” (1800-1840). Flat cock with beveled edges and line border. 8″ round .58 cal. barrel with Birmingham proofs, a series of stars, and marked “EXTRA/SHARPE/PROOF at breech; tang with line border and broad arrow stamp. Brass barrel and furniture included butt cap, ramrod thimbles, and sideplate and trigger guard with engraved snowflake design.

Brass wrist escutcheon engraved with letters “WG”. Walnut stock with small crack on wood ramrod. Metal parts cleaned. These early trade pistols were highly prized by the Indian tribes.

A like gun is pictured in Lar Hothem’s “Rare and Unusual Indian Artifacts”, page 386. Tom Richards Collection.

NOTE
We have owned several Sharpe muzzleloaders (pistols and rifles (smoothbores) in flint and converted percussion guns). This is one of many manufactures that were available in the late 1920’s.

Our insurance company and NRA got involved, we recovered $2,500.00 through their policies. That's about right for value.

We would have rather had the gun back.

 

[Clark Badgett]

Those economy English trade pistols must have come over by the boat loads. I have examined many at various gunshows over the years. They were made along a general theme, similar but not always the same. Barrels usually around 9” long. Many makers used the same style of lock, with minor variations.

 

[Polecat_Tom]

Have shot with a boat load of folks at the club range, what's your birth name will probably remember.

I will try to send PM

 

[Relic shooter]

Original Trade Gun Thimbles
Maybe more info than you wanted, these were recovered in the field.
Set still in good shape if someone needs a set for new build or restoration.
Openings are for a larger diameter tapered ramrod.

 

[Hiverano]

What a shame all those guns sitting there just collecting dust.
SMH
I know they want to be adopted!

They don't get a chance to collect dust, those college kids that work there keep busy caring for the toys.