Trade knife

[Dan99]

You seem to be mixing English with French. I don't believe you would find diamond grips on a French boucheron, nor the 3rd pin at the rear of scales on English scalpers as they were commonly one piece. If that knife is supposed to be English, the blade is much too thick and they were not made with a noticeable ricasso as they were a blended transition. Your blade profile is much too spear shaped even for French. As just a common smith made knife it is fine and I would choose it over either the common English or French scalpers for an all around belt knife but it is not a good example of either of the common scalpers French or English.

Ok, now I understand. I will put up a border between my English and my French. And make sure I don’t put my own inspiration on the blades I’m attempting to copy.
Thank you again for taking time to comment and explain!

 

[Brokennock]

Ok, now I understand. I will put up a border between my English and my French. And make sure I don’t put my own inspiration on the blades I’m attempting to copy.
Thank you again for taking time to comment and explain!

Wow! Now there is a refreshing attitude.

I admire your lack of defensiveness and openess to the input of a known legend in this field of endeavor.

Even with the mix of styles, I like the knife. It looks very slicey and stabby, lol.

Someone commented on the handle coming forward of the bottom corner of the blade,,,, my understanding of period trade knives is that the handles coming forward is correct. My not doing that on the re-handle project I posted was one of the constructive criticisms I received.

 

[Dan99]

Wow! Now there is a refreshing attitude.

I admire your lack of defensiveness and openess to the input of a known legend in this field of endeavor.

Even with the mix of styles, I like the knife. It looks very slicey and stabby, lol.

Someone commented on the handle coming forward of the bottom corner of the blade,,,, my understanding of period trade knives is that the handles coming forward is correct. My not doing that on the re-handle project I posted was one of the constructive criticisms I received.

The way I look at it is, I love making knives…if someone that has the knowledge and is willing to share… I’m all ears… if I can learn to make more specialized knives, people will get what they want, my knives sell instead of sitting in my garage, everyone wins

 

[Notchy Bob]

Someone commented on the handle coming forward of the bottom corner of the blade,,,, my understanding of period trade knives is that the handles coming forward is correct. My not doing that on the re-handle project I posted was one of the constructive criticisms I received.

As an illustration, here is an antique knife I acquired just recently:



The photo is not really very clear, but the leading edge of the wooden scale comes beyond the choil about 5mm. Also, those are not cutler's rivets. They are copper harness rivets. I don't know how old this knife actually is... it may even be early 20th century... but whoever made it was acquainted with older styles of construction.

Anyway, that older practice of extending the handle slightly onto the blade is a very practical feature, if you think about it. The one knife that I broke, and several other broken knives I have seen pictured, all broke right at the junction of the blade with the handle. The technique shown above gives some reinforcement in this weak spot. Although, if you watched Dan's videos earlier in this thread, his knives seem plenty strong as they are!

Notchy Bob

 

[Dan99]

As an illustration, here is an antique knife I acquired just recently:

View attachment 171639

The photo is not really very clear, but the leading edge of the wooden scale comes beyond the choil about 5mm. Also, those are not cutler's rivets. They are copper harness rivets. I don't know how old this knife actually is... it may even be early 20th century... but whoever made it was acquainted with older styles of construction.

Anyway, that older practice of extending the handle slightly onto the blade is a very practical feature, if you think about it. The one knife that I broke, and several other broken knives I have seen pictured, all broke right at the junction of the blade with the handle. The technique shown above gives some reinforcement in this weak spot. Although, if you watched Dan's videos earlier in this thread, his knives seem plenty strong as they are!

Notchy Bob

earlier Red Owl was talking about the blockiness at the handle/blade junction, I think I addressed that (picture below), although I will probably replace the scales and maybe reprofile the blade shape to make it fit the French boucheron check list.
Very cool knife, as always thank you for sharing and the encouragement!

 

[Bushfire]

I specifically spoke to Ken Hamilton in regard to the heel of the blade in boucherons. The heel can extend passed the scale and generally does but I don't believe it must. There was a lot of variation even in the time period in the amount of overlap, although he did say many contemporary makers today over exaggerate the heel overlap (much like many contemporary makers over exaggerate the drop in fusil stocks - that's my simile not his).

I think it's worth bearing in mind that there aren't that many extant complete knives from the period. New unpublished archaeological evidence suggests that 3 pin 2 scale boucherons were in fact the norm not the exception. Prior, most knives recovered were just blades with two holes so people assumed it was a two pin knife. We may never know but it could be that all defining features had more variation than what we assume.

 

[Reno]

Many of us carry a knife much nicer than what was really used “back then”.
The surviving examples I have seen were very plain. Utility comes to mind.
I like knives I appreciate knives and I have a few really nice knives.
But if you are going for correctness then spend some time and do you research.
This goes for anything

 

[TDM]

Very nice Dan, I like it. And yes to the handle question. Square and octagon were period correct.

 

[Red Owl]

I'm confused. What was the original knife being copied? Also...I thought barwood and camwood came from British Honduras It made a round trip from the New World to England and then as a knife scale back to the new world. The "red handled" knives. I've never really found an answer on what they were. Were they a naturally reddish wood or a red dyed wood? Boxwood was common but where do you find boxwood?
The cutler rivets, I think they got going around the 1880's, or there abouts.
One thing I've done is to find a photo of an original and use a photocopy machine to blow it up to full size, based on the blade length and then use that as a template in making a knife.
And a mea culpa- I've made so much stuff that afterwards I found out was wrong. I don't even want to think about it. You spend a certain amount of time making something and then there it is. I'm stuck with all this stuff I've made that I subsequently found was wrong. So...just trying to be helpful. .
he biggest problem in recreating a trade knife is we use a lot of effort to make what was originally an inexpensive knife. It is sort of a similar situation to making moccasins.

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

The way I look at it is, I love making knives…if someone that has the knowledge and is willing to share… I’m all ears… if I can learn to make more specialized knives, people will get what they want, my knives sell instead of sitting in my garage, everyone wins

I'd be proud of either of those knives, great work!

 

[appalichian hunter]

While we all strive for period correct, we also have our own expectations of what something should look like, I think your knives are a good example of both some historical refrences and some builder refrences, as to a touch mark I would use the one you usually put on YOUR blades, you built it, for me it shows ones pride in there work. Fine work there.

 

[Dan99]

I'm confused. What was the original knife being copied? Also...I thought barwood and camwood came from British Honduras It made a round trip from the New World to England and then as a knife scale back to the new world. The "red handled" knives. I've never really found an answer on what they were. Were they a naturally reddish wood or a red dyed wood? Boxwood was common but where do you find boxwood?
The cutler rivets, I think they got going around the 1880's, or there abouts.
One thing I've done is to find a photo of an original and use a photocopy machine to blow it up to full size, based on the blade length and then use that as a template in making a knife.
And a mea culpa- I've made so much stuff that afterwards I found out was wrong. I don't even want to think about it. You spend a certain amount of time making something and then there it is. I'm stuck with all this stuff I've made that I subsequently found was wrong. So...just trying to be helpful. .
he biggest problem in recreating a trade knife is we use a lot of effort to make what was originally an inexpensive knife. It is sort of a similar situation to making moccasins.

My original plan was to make a type 1 French Scalper with a full tang. (Because some people don’t trust 1/2 tangs) In doing my research I failed to notice in “correct” knives ONLY English Scalpers had Diamond shaped handles (looking from back of knife). Then it was discovered my type 1 is a little to pointy .
I’m good with the suggestions, I’d rather know now instead of month or years from now.
As for my Bubinga handle…because there is no concrete evidence of what the “red handle” was made from, I believe it could have been Bubinga which grows on western coast of Africa, which rumor has it was visited by England in the 1700’s

The good thing about no epoxy in 1700’s is I can drive pins out re-profile the blade shape, replace handle with blocky wood slabs or octagon and it should be correct compliant.

 

[Dan99]

I'd be proud of either of those knives, great work!

Thank you!

 

[Dan99]

While we all strive for period correct, we also have our own expectations of what something should look like, I think your knives are a good example of both some historical refrences and some builder refrences, as to a touch mark I would use the one you usually put on YOUR blades, you built it, for me it shows ones pride in there work. Fine work there.

Great idea, I’m working on a touch mark now. Thank you for pointing out the balance between historic and builder references, sometimes it’s tough to not improvise. What should I call a knife I’ve changed from historically correct?
Thank you for taking time to share your thoughts!

 

[appalichian hunter]

Historically inspired, incorporating ideals from period correct cutlery with builders interjections, perhaps.

 

[Bushfire]

View attachment 171980
My original plan was to make a type 1 French Scalper with a full tang. (Because some people don’t trust 1/2 tangs) In doing my research I failed to notice in “correct” knives ONLY English Scalpers had Diamond shaped handles (looking from back of knife). Then it was discovered my type 1 is a little to pointy .
I’m good with the suggestions, I’d rather know now instead of month or years from now.
As for my Bubinga handle…because there is no concrete evidence of what the “red handle” was made from, I believe it could have been Bubinga which grows on western coast of Africa, which rumor has it was visited by England in the 1700’s

The good thing about no epoxy in 1700’s is I can drive pins out re-profile the blade shape, replace handle with blocky wood slabs or octagon and it should be correct compliant.

Boucheron not scalper remember

If you're aiming for historic french, you can't go wrong with boxwood handdles. The french loved it.

I still recommend chatting to some of the more knowledgeable guys and getting photos, even dimensions of these knives. The guide you have there is good as a visual aid for determining the types but it over exaggerates some of the features. E.g. type C seems to have a lot of drop, but then go back to the photo of my boucheron in this thread and that's what the drop actually looks like, 4 degrees is very subtle.

 

[Dan99]

Boucheron not scalper remember

If you're aiming for historic french, you can't go wrong with boxwood handdles. The french loved it.

I still recommend chatting to some of the more knowledgeable guys and getting photos, even dimensions of these knives. The guide you have there is good as a visual aid for determining the types but it over exaggerates some of the features. E.g. type C seems to have a lot of drop, but then go back to the photo of my boucheron in this thread and that's what the drop actually looks like, 4 degrees is very subtle.

Will do! Is Boucheron French for Scalper?
Thanks, I’m going to start printing out information I have and put in a folder, was trying to file it in folders on phone but not as easy to find when I need it

 

[Bushfire]

Will do! Is Boucheron French for Scalper?
Thanks, I’m going to start printing out information I have and put in a folder, was trying to file it in folders on phone but not as easy to find when I need it

Boucheron translates to something like butcher. I've never really seen them referred to as scalpers anywhere. English had scalpers. Not a great analogy, but would you really refer to a bess as a fowling piece even though it can be used for that? I'll admit it's semantics but it helps with potential confusion in your research going forward.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I believe a boucheron is considered a "woodsman's knife." You also run across the word, couteau, in the literature, sometimes spelled phonetically in English as "cuttoe," but I think that is just a generic word for "knife." I have always had the impression that a boucheron was a specific type.

In addition to the articles you have already seen by Ken Hamilton and Kevin Gladysz, there was some older archaeological work on French trade knives in a Native American or First Nations context (primarily Petun or Wyandot) by a man named Garrad. I think most of it is online. A caveat is that his sketches of early French knives may not be totally accurate, but his written descriptions are meticulous.

You're doing good work as well as research, Dan.

Notchy Bob

 

[Brokennock]

One of the articles passed around recently discusses the name "boucheron" and it does not translate directly as pertains to why the knives were called that. There is room for debate and interpretation here. However, regardless of the reason, it is what the French called these knives. Also, for a mass produced (for the period), lower budget, item, they did have very specific guidelines for sizes and shapes that seem to have been strictly adhered to.

Does anyone know of any wood more commonly/easily available wood today that closely resembles boxwood with the right finish and dyes/stains?