Traditional ML hunting in CA

[Vrbanic]

Regarding the condor controversy, the actual reports done by the field biologists stated that the amounts of lead found in condor carcasses could very well have come from the existing traces of lead in the environment. You are correct, axes to grind, a political objective, translate the facts into polito-speak.
Likewise waterfowl, the "studies" done many decades before the lead bans did not find lead in dead waterfowl, and this was explained by rationalizing that the waterfowl supposedly poisoned decomposed too rapidly in marsh environments or were scavenged.
I left California a long time ago and do not have a dog in this fight other than what happens there often is carried to other states via the feds.

I've never cast with bismuth but that could be a solution.

 

[mushka]

The main cure for this problem is not to go to calif. Problem solved. I was born there but I won't go back.

 

[sportster73hp]

I realize the op wants patched roundball but would a paperpatched cylinder slug of copper or brass be an option?

 

[scotbradly726]

I wou

The main cure for this problem is not to go to calif. Problem solved. I was born there but I won't go back.

I would typically agree with you, but my elderly mother lives there, and we want to be closer to her, and we are tired of living in the cold and wet of NW Washington. So, off we go.

On a side note, TANSTAAFL....The property we just bought is on Tanstaafl Ln. weird little coinkydinky

 

[scotbradly726]

I realize the op wants patched roundball but would a paperpatched cylinder slug of copper or brass be an option?

I'm not even necessarily looking for round ball. Just something that I can legally use to hunt with in CA

 

[Spikebuck]

Search for OLD posts by ROUNDBALL with BRASS in the topic. He did significant experimentation with brass round balls he could purchase commercially. They were not the "normal" sizes we are accustomed to, but he could vary patch thickness. Good accuracy, good penetration in his testing. I cannot remember if he followed through with an actual deer kill or not. I do remember that he favored a little smaller than usual sized ball and thicker patching since brass is so much harder.

BTW....Roundball still exists, he just doesn't post anymore.

 

[SDSmlf]

Search for OLD posts by ROUNDBALL with BRASS in the topic. He did significant experimentation with brass round balls he could purchase commercially. They were not the "normal" sizes we are accustomed to, but he could vary patch thickness. Good accuracy, good penetration in his testing. I cannot remember if he followed through with an actual deer kill or not. I do remember that he favored a little smaller than usual sized ball and thicker patching since brass is so much harder.

BTW....Roundball still exists, he just doesn't post anymore.

Posted a link to Roundball’s thread in post #8.

As suggested by @Walkingeagle read the old posts by Roundball and his testing of 58 caliber brass balls. Non-Lead projectiles for hunting

 

[sequoia]

Here is possible source for bismuth round balls. They are pricey a $1 each.
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/ITX-50-cal-487-non-toxic-roundball-12-balls/productinfo/TXRB50/

 

[SDSmlf]

Something else to consider that I just remembered. Whatever projectile or bullet you use in California has to be on California’s pre approved list. Good luck.

 

[sawyer04]

WHOA!!! California, I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Dcrouch]

I have cast 58 caliber round balls from bismuth. They came out fine, haven't tested as of yet. The thing to keep in mind is cast a a cooler temp and let the round ball cool for a bit longer in the mold before releasing. As for approved projectiles for use in California, I have researched and it seems to be a simple process submitting a test sample of the projectile and what materials used. Once approved, it will be added to the approved list.

Nonlead Certification for Ammunition Manufacturers

 

[William Lincoln]

You are referring to shotgun pellets. Are you suggesting that raptors and vultures
chug down rifle lead bullets and balls? That is fiction. I was a falconer until the
regulations surrounding mews and the licensure got onerous. Raptors and vultures
are careful eaters, they rip and test and swallow. Slugs can and do fracture but my
birds would catch that and flip it (expell to the side). Small shotgun pellets might be
consumed by other birds consuming carrion and that is as far as regulation is
justified. Steel and alloy shot is widely in use. To include lead bullets is speculation
and anti gun regulation. Also, the mass weight of the ball must allow for a humane kill.
You cannot shoot a light material with enough penetration to maim but not kill the
game. That is why people are fleeing California, they are half baked regulators doing
as much harm as good. Let's stop fishing and using lead sinkers because fish are
consuming the lead?? How about major chemical companies who bribe to keep
those mercury compounds pumping into our fields and waters?? Where are those
regulations?? But the pro-gun hunter, let's hassel him.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Here is possible source for bismuth round balls. They are pricey a $1 each.
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/ITX-50-cal-487-non-toxic-roundball-12-balls/productinfo/TXRB50/

Respectfully, I don't think the ITX Roundballs mentioned in post #28 are bismuth. It is my understanding that these are a sintered matrix of tungsten and iron (ITX=iron tungsten matrix). That's based on something I recall reading several years ago, but I'm unable to find anything at this point to verify it. I did submit some questions to about the roundballs to TomBob Outdoors, and we'll see what they tell us.

Visually, these remind me of the balls designed for the old two-grooved Brunswick rifles, with that "belt" around the middle. The difference is the ITX balls have a flat belt, and balls for the Brunswick rifles had a slightly protruding belt to engage the grooves in the barrel. Still, these balls have a distinctive appearance, which I think was intended to make them readily identifiable by game wardens as approved lead-free ammunition.

I also found an unbiased review of these, right here: ITX Non-Lead Field Test for Accuracy This was written by Larry Pletcher, who posts on various blackpowder forums as "Pletch." He found the ITX balls grouped very well, as compared to lead. Not championship match-grade accuracy, but it was very good, and fully adequate for hunting. He did report a problem with patch-cutting by the lands as the ball was pushed into the muzzle, and there was no deformation of the ball with any patch material tested. So, for shooting these balls, you need a really smooth crown and exceptionally strong patch material. The nominal .50 caliber ITX roundballs are described by the manufacturer as .487" diameter. Mr. Pletcher found the balls used for testing did measure .487" on the non-belted area, but the belt itself was .002" larger. He felt that a ball measuring .015" - .020" smaller than bore diameter (around the belt) would be "...more forgiving to shoot," although it would also require a thicker patch.

Regarding condors and lead poisoning, this article in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences for the United States of America (from July, 2012) provides a lot of information: Lead poisoning and the deceptive recovery of the endangered California condor

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[William Lincoln]

Question is whether those non-lead RBs damage the bores. Condors will do just fine.
The real issue is overpopulation that takes up the habitat that the Condor needs. But
California doesn't want to face reality, they just invite millions of people to pour in
from all over the Globe and expect the"inhabitants" who live there to suck it up
and take some more regulations that they caused the "need" for. My Grandpa and
Grandma lived in Whittier California where they were friends with a family whose head
was Television name Roy Rogers(Leonard Slye). It was the Golden West in those days.
Our family pulled out years back and no one pines to return to California.

 

[Blitz]

Galena is the ore of Lead. There are trace amounts all over California. The Sierra Gordo
Mine in INYO COUNTY Calif. is a lead mine and there are many other lesser sites.
The prohibition of lead in bullets will not affect health or safety, it is just something
for politicians to do when they don't know what to do. It is symbolic.

It~s all about control and basically like the global warming scare. the other day I came across a new projected ice age impending report.
Back shortly before Al Gore in vented the internet and made us all aware of the global warming peril some scientists were warning of another ice age.
Just recently there was a group saying that when they got to run things scientifically COVID19 would be a thing of the past, like the Dodo bird.

 

[leadhoarder]

Just tell them that your lead round ball identifies as a copper bullet.

 

[Blitz]

Respectfully, I don't think the ITX Roundballs mentioned in post #28 are bismuth. It is my understanding that these are a sintered matrix of tungsten and iron (ITX=iron tungsten matrix). That's based on something I recall reading several years ago, but I'm unable to find anything at this point to verify it. I did submit some questions to about the roundballs to TomBob Outdoors, and we'll see what they tell us.

Visually, these remind me of the balls designed for the old two-grooved Brunswick rifles, with that "belt" around the middle. The difference is the ITX balls have a flat belt, and balls for the Brunswick rifles had a slightly protruding belt to engage the grooves in the barrel. Still, these balls have a distinctive appearance, which I think was intended to make them readily identifiable by game wardens as approved lead-free ammunition.

View attachment 63470


I also found an unbiased review of these, right here: ITX Non-Lead Field Test for Accuracy This was written by Larry Pletcher, who posts on various blackpowder forums as "Pletch." He found the ITX balls grouped very well, as compared to lead. Not championship match-grade accuracy, but it was very good, and fully adequate for hunting. He did report a problem with patch-cutting by the lands as the ball was pushed into the muzzle, and there was no deformation of the ball with any patch material tested. So, for shooting these balls, you need a really smooth crown and exceptionally strong patch material. The nominal .50 caliber ITX roundballs are described by the manufacturer as .487" diameter. Mr. Pletcher found the balls used for testing did measure .487" on the non-belted area, but the belt itself was .002" larger. He felt that a ball measuring .015" - .020" smaller than bore diameter (around the belt) would be "...more forgiving to shoot," although it would also require a thicker patch.

Regarding condors and lead poisoning, this article in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences for the United States of America (from July, 2012) provides a lot of information: Lead poisoning and the deceptive recovery of the endangered California condor

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

the Condors are decieving us . They have extended thier range eastwardly in Arizona`s Grand Canyon, and somewhat Northward in California.
Now if the scientists ( U. C. ) students could get them to quit eating lead based paint off the old wooden structures they roost on we wouldn!t need to be decieved

 

[Woody Morgan]

They're nasty birds. We get them here are all summer and they make a mess.
Good for cleaning up after dressing out game though.

 

[Caniborrowsomeammo]

I'm here in Kalifornia. I've had my ammunition checked by fish and FOUL while hunting. All you have to do is give the Revenuer a sample projectile, they will get your name and license # and have it tested. If it is over a certain percentage of lead (I don't remember the % amount) you will be issued a citation to help fill their coffers. So if you use brass or copper RB, or W or ITX in a sabot you should be good.

 

[scotbradly726]

I'm here in Kalifornia. I've had my ammunition checked by fish and FOUL while hunting. All you have to do is give the Revenuer a sample projectile, they will get your name and license # and have it tested. If it is over a certain percentage of lead (I don't remember the % amount) you will be issued a citation to help fill their coffers. So if you use brass or copper RB, or W or ITX in a sabot you should be good.

Thanks!

Whereabouts in CA are you? We will be in Redding