Sounds like ROAD WARRIOR!!!
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Traditional percussion
- Thread starter vince-m
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I think we have missed the point, Thompson produced a rifle that was well made and priced right and it started a new wave of shooters and hunters. I think everyone has there preference but what I was after was the possibility that we could start a resurgence.
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I've no idea what a road warrior is, if I don't really want to know . Rudyard
I think Jim is working on producing different models and possibly a Hawken style down the road, but it takes time and r&d to start producing a new model.
I wish him luck........
rshveyda
40 Cal
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Respectfully, years ago I sold off a Kentucky Rifle and a few unmentionables that had been given to me by my father over the years. I have come to regret the decision in the worst way. Whatever amount of money you get from the sale will never mean as much to you as having your father's rifle, IMHO.
Sad but true, Hollywood drives the market and demand for many things in our lives. ML was a tiny fringe market until ‘Jeremiah Johnson’ movie, then ‘Mt Men’ w/ C Heston, and recently ‘The Revenant’. Surge of interest ( and sales) after each. Bluegrass music was a cult thing until the movie ‘Bonny and Clyde’, then ‘Deliverance’, then ‘Oh Brother Where art thou’. Hollywood is usually more interested in selling beaver than trapping it....
Traditional muzzle loader folks like us are - generally speaking - are rounding third and heading for home. There won’t be many coming up to take our place. Also, we already have most of the pickets in the fence in terms of hardware. I like this forum because of the kind, excellent and plentiful help offered to newcomers.
I think that excellent USA made product will be even harder to find and afford real soon and we should all do what we can yo support these outfits and do what we can yo introduce our thing to the new folks.
Traditional muzzle loader folks like us are - generally speaking - are rounding third and heading for home. There won’t be many coming up to take our place. Also, we already have most of the pickets in the fence in terms of hardware. I like this forum because of the kind, excellent and plentiful help offered to newcomers.
I think that excellent USA made product will be even harder to find and afford real soon and we should all do what we can yo support these outfits and do what we can yo introduce our thing to the new folks.
Crow-Feather
32 Cal.
I would believe that T/C's business was insured. Before the fire, there must have been enough of a decline in sales that it made T/C decide that it was not cost effective to rebuild. Sales are so low that the few lower cost rifle companies now only offer for sale two calibers of rifles except for the 32 offered by Traditions. The invention of in____ rifles and their low cost coupled with their allowed use during hunting season has made an impact. The shinning times are dimming.
Anybody could start a company that made muzzleloaders in the USA. Nobody is doing it now. Low number of prospects for sales. And the "everthing about the model should be different attitude". No chance, I think. Maybe some things are better available custom only. You can certainly get a nice gun made in the states now.
Would still like to see u.s. company start a line of rifles....
Wishful thinking a guess.
Wishful thinking a guess.
Archer 756
40 Cal.
TC was a great company now that S&W owns the rights all has gone down hill, 
lots of luck getting S&W to do any thing,
lots of luck getting S&W to do any thing,- Joined
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When you think about it, " traditional" muzzleloading rifles are returning to their roots. By this I mean non- mass produced in small shops to customer specifications. The trade guns were the equivalent of today's " imports", but the American rifle was always at least semi custom.
Curious that the TC Hawken, often maligned for not being p.c./h.c., is so missed.
Yes the dreaded inline has dominated the market for some time, and will continue to do so. But there will always be those will one day realize they want/ need something different. I'm one of them.
I started muzzleloading with my P53 Enfield, went to several different inlines before settling on my one remaining( and NEVER to be parted with).
HOWEVER. I also acquired a TC Hawken that I am UNREASONABLY fond of and recently added a used, custom flintlock long rifle. Coming full circle, as the saying goes...
Perhaps the preservation of the art and craft of sidelock muzzleloaders will rest in how it all began.
Just a thought.
Curious that the TC Hawken, often maligned for not being p.c./h.c., is so missed.
Yes the dreaded inline has dominated the market for some time, and will continue to do so. But there will always be those will one day realize they want/ need something different. I'm one of them.
I started muzzleloading with my P53 Enfield, went to several different inlines before settling on my one remaining( and NEVER to be parted with).
HOWEVER. I also acquired a TC Hawken that I am UNREASONABLY fond of and recently added a used, custom flintlock long rifle. Coming full circle, as the saying goes...
Perhaps the preservation of the art and craft of sidelock muzzleloaders will rest in how it all began.
Just a thought.
I'm really surprised CVA doesn't make them. They make their own inlines, so how much more difficult is it to still make some traditional ones.
CVA does not and has not made anything. The traditional rifles and pistols CVA imported and marketed were mostly Ardesas. Some other makes from time to time as well. CVA no longer exists as a company. The CVA brand name is owned by BPI.
I could have swore they stated they started making their own about the time they quit making Traditionals, but I could be mistaken.
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Henry came on a popular Canadian gun forum recently and started a thread about what sort of firearm we'd like them to make next. Most requests were for lever guns but a few of us requested a Hawken style rifle. Its pretty unrealistic for our small market up here but if you guys were onboard, they might be interested.
I suggest you guys think larger. Muzzleloading in general has been in a state of decline over the past few years as pew pew has taken front and center. It's taken us years to get to this point but it can be reversed but we all have to pitch in. First off, businesses will not produce a product for which there is little to no demand. That demand has to be generated somehow. Just talking among ourselves is an echo chamber. We need to create new consumers to create the demand that will create business opportunities. For my part, I've been involved with a core group of people motivated to teach youth in muzzleloading. See my previous posts on instruction and kids for the general idea. To turn this boat isn't going to be easy but we all have to pitch in and work at it. Take a kid to the range with blackpowder and make sure the kid has a great time. Make sure their parents go and have a great time. Take your shooting buddies who only know pew pew and get them some quality trigger time. Not everyone is going to get bitten by the bug, but if you don't expose folks to muzzleloading, they'll never know the truth about it, namely, it's a blast from the past and tons of fun.
Col. Batguano
75 Cal.
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I applaud Jim Kibler's efforts and add my voice to wishing him the best of luck. Like beautiful women, there can't be too many pretty ones out there with the proper architecture!
Any American product will have to compete head to head with the current giant(s) in the business. Pedersoli in particular. Their key to making an affordable product is having it handled by human hands as few times as possible, and making as much use of machines as possible. That is an enormous capital investment, to make as many of your own parts as possible. I don't think the current state of the manufacturing art has progressed far enough to allow well executed and crisp (hands-off) raised carving, though incised carving probably could be, as well as engraving (though it won't look as good / authentic as hand done stuff).
The real question (relative to the above) is; how big is the market? For better or worse, the in-lines are probably 75%+ of the ML'er market, and most of those guns are stocked in something other than what traditional guns are stocked with. (Yuk!) Those, and the <$500 traditional guns are probably mostly used by those that are looking to extend their hunting seasons. Together, they're probably 90% of the market. For the majority of hunters, a gun is a tool more than it is an expressive form of the hunter's identity. That group won't pay up for "art", only enhanced performance, or perceived / simplicity of use.
The principal way for a potential manufacturer to approach this question is to figure out what (and how many) consumers want, and what they will pay for it. (I'm deliberately leaving marketing out of this equation.) Then, figure out how you can manufacture it at a price that lets you stay in business. Pedersoli has dozens of models because consumers seldom will want duplicates of the same item, and it's the old 80-20 rule. 80% of your business comes from 20% of your customers. Jim Kibler has carved out a niche by making guns (though they are currently only offered in kit form) with proper architecture that Pedersoli doesn't.
Any American product will have to compete head to head with the current giant(s) in the business. Pedersoli in particular. Their key to making an affordable product is having it handled by human hands as few times as possible, and making as much use of machines as possible. That is an enormous capital investment, to make as many of your own parts as possible. I don't think the current state of the manufacturing art has progressed far enough to allow well executed and crisp (hands-off) raised carving, though incised carving probably could be, as well as engraving (though it won't look as good / authentic as hand done stuff).
The real question (relative to the above) is; how big is the market? For better or worse, the in-lines are probably 75%+ of the ML'er market, and most of those guns are stocked in something other than what traditional guns are stocked with. (Yuk!) Those, and the <$500 traditional guns are probably mostly used by those that are looking to extend their hunting seasons. Together, they're probably 90% of the market. For the majority of hunters, a gun is a tool more than it is an expressive form of the hunter's identity. That group won't pay up for "art", only enhanced performance, or perceived / simplicity of use.
The principal way for a potential manufacturer to approach this question is to figure out what (and how many) consumers want, and what they will pay for it. (I'm deliberately leaving marketing out of this equation.) Then, figure out how you can manufacture it at a price that lets you stay in business. Pedersoli has dozens of models because consumers seldom will want duplicates of the same item, and it's the old 80-20 rule. 80% of your business comes from 20% of your customers. Jim Kibler has carved out a niche by making guns (though they are currently only offered in kit form) with proper architecture that Pedersoli doesn't.
Thanks Dave I think that's a great idea and I will start something in this area.
It isn’t going to happen.
Sadly the writing is all over the wall. Go to any muzzleloading shoot or trade show and about 95% of the participants are white haired Caucasian males 60+ in age.
This is absolutely, no doubt about it, an old man’s sport. There is just not nearly enough new blood entering the hobby to sustain it at its current level. It just will not happen. And, the market is not going to invest in such a thing.
I imagine in 20-30 years the hobby will be a husk of its former self as technology marches forward and the old ways are lost. This might seem very dour but it is realistic. I pray another muzzleloading resurgence gets sparked somewhere along the line, as it happened in the 60s and 70s here, but I’m not holding my breath.
As a young man in the hobby these are just my thoughts as “an outsider looking in”. If I am proven wrong in time, believe me, I’ll be the first to be happy about it.
Sadly the writing is all over the wall. Go to any muzzleloading shoot or trade show and about 95% of the participants are white haired Caucasian males 60+ in age.
This is absolutely, no doubt about it, an old man’s sport. There is just not nearly enough new blood entering the hobby to sustain it at its current level. It just will not happen. And, the market is not going to invest in such a thing.
I imagine in 20-30 years the hobby will be a husk of its former self as technology marches forward and the old ways are lost. This might seem very dour but it is realistic. I pray another muzzleloading resurgence gets sparked somewhere along the line, as it happened in the 60s and 70s here, but I’m not holding my breath.
As a young man in the hobby these are just my thoughts as “an outsider looking in”. If I am proven wrong in time, believe me, I’ll be the first to be happy about it.
