Traditional vs. modern ratio

[roundball]

FWIW, I've been running a poll in a blackpowder section of another site where all forms of muzzleloaders are discussed, asking for preferences on the type of muzzleloader used...and while not a huge statistically valid sample, so far responses are running:

Traditional = 24%
Modern = 76%

Easy to see the results of the past 15 years marketing campaigns...and that's from a membership who are already into some form of muzzleloading, looking at the blackpowder section, etc.

I suspect the remaining untapped set of potential hunters country wide / world wide, who have yet to get their first ML of any sort is still a very large market...be interesting to know what the revenue projections are...new first time purchases, replacement upgrades, scopes, ammo, supplies, etc, etc...must be staggering...easy to understand the continued feeding frenzy by the modern ML manufacturers

 

[AZ-Robert]

Yep. By last count, we were just over 280 million citizens. Given that 10% of us hunt, that is around 28 million firearms, assuming only one per hunter (and we know that ain't right!). Now put a dollar cost on the basic firearm, and then the annual output for accessories (I'll bet modern ML shooters have a tendency to buy rather than make those) and it quickly adds up to a pile of money.

 

[ryoung14]

Nearly all the folks who ski the intermediate and advanced slopes started out on the bunny slope and moved on when it got too predictable.

It appears that Traditional has a large untapped reservoir of shooters...if they're treated right, that is. Whether Traditional grows or withers is up to us.
FWIW
Bob

 

[Landngroove]

As we had spoke of in an earlier post, today's marketing is totally geared toward modern in-line muzzleloaders. Having taken up muzzleloading, before in-lines were aroud, (modern) I learned, and many others on this forum, how to use, and enjoy, percussion, and flintlock mls. I wonder how many people taking up muzzleloading today even know about loose powder, and a powder measure? Pellets are all they know of. Again, it is not thier fault, but it is all they are exposed to in marketing practices. I suspect that in-line numbers will grow.

 

[Walks Alone]

All good replies and with merit gents. :hatsoff:

In-lines can be produced cheaper mostly likely (so more profit) and most folks are pretty lazy these days - maybe a couple more reasons why the modern stuff is taking over the new to MLing. Us old side lock fans need to educate the new crowd if we want any chance at all for them to come back or have factory offerings stay around. We might be heading towards only home and custom built traditionals with current trends.

No hard facts to back any of this, just some thoughts to kick around...

 

[riarcher]

While I myself shoot only "traditional" now, I'm the "oddball" at my local state range. Some shoot /hunt with trads, but back them up (?) with moder somethings.
Last summer, I was the only flint shooter seen.
Many with Hawkins and such, but also with the "unmentionables".
I met virtually nobody that hunted small game or used a BP shotgun. Definately onebody else is shooting foul and/or sporting clays with a muzzleloader in my area that I'm aware of.

 

[Swamp Buck]

One only has to visit most "sporting goods stores" and look what is offered in the muzzleloading sections. All you see are inlines and the equipment that goes with them. Often the few items of traditional equipment found is tucked away on a lower shelf.

Anyone contemplating getting into muzzleloading would have no idea anything else exists other than inlines - or if they did would be lead to believe that anything else would be inferior.

 

[Keppy]

Yep I for one got my first ML 50 cal. Hawkens back in 197-. :hmm: I hung it on the wall it was pretty. I was into other types of shooting. I never shot it and finally sold it. Couple years ago I bought a inline. Thats about all I could find. My friend introduced me to sidelocks and now I'm hooked. The inline is gone. But I know other guys that have so much money into there inlines that they can't sell them. I have seen inlines everything you need to start out for $150.00 up and ones that are discontinued close out for under $100.00 I know because I bought one. Outside of the CVA Bobcat try finding a sidelock for that money and thats gone too. The DNR loves these inlines. Just look at the revenue there getting.
Hey Roundball looked at a flinter today. Old BP guy in town, thats all he shoots. :grin: :hatsoff:

 

[kodiakemt414]

Rondball, what is that site? I'll add one for the trads! I own both, but prefer my Hawken!

 

[roundball]

Rondball, what is that site? I'll add one for the trads! I own both, but prefer my Hawken!

(See your "PT"'s)

 

[Zonie]

The numbers don't suprise me in the least.

The ads do have an effect but when all is said and done, most folks don't like to change much.
They like to stick to what they know and almost all of them know something about modern guns.
That's what they shoot and that's what they have come to rely on.

Now, when the average person decides to get into Black Powder, even though they may know there are old fashioned guns out there, it is only natural for them to choose a gun they are familiar with.

Add to this the idea that most hunters want the most accurate, most powerful thing that they can shoot well and can afford.
It doesn't take an advertising wizard to figure out that what they want looks modern and it has a scope and it can shoot with almost magnum power.

I think talking to others about our guns and their capabilities is a start, and in the interests of Traditional muzzleloaders, mentioning the high price of sabot/bullet style of ammunition the modern guns use (while pointing out that round balls cost about 8 cents each)might help.

Offering anyone interested in shooting a traditional gun an opportunity to fire a round or two. (Old Bill was the range helper and had been watching me shoot at the range for about a month. He would stand back and breath deeply saying "I love the smell of black powder in the morning."
When I finished my .36 Squirrel rifle my vision was so bad I knew I couldn't sight it in so I asked him "You ever shoot a Flintlock?" "No, can't say I have." "Would you like to? I need someone to sight this thing in for me."
Making a long story shorter, he fired 5 shots at 25 yards, all in a group about 3/4 inch in diameter at 25 yards range. "Damn! There's some sense to that!!" were his words at the time.
He passed on a few months later but he never tired of telling anyone who would listen about how much fun shooting a Flintlock was and how accurate they could be.

Answering all questions in a friendly manner.
(I might note here that sometimes, correcting folks doesn't make them happy so sometimes it's better to just go with the flow.
An example oif this was a father with a young son at the range. The father said to his son "See that? That's an old fashioned Musket!" and the kids eyes grew larger. My answer? "Yup, this is how the old guns were made, would you like to try a shot?"
I might note here they were looking at my Percussion Lancaster which is a far cry from a Military Musket.
After he fired my gun he had a ear to ear grin and I'm sure he also had a deep seated desire to get a traditional BP gun for himself.)

Work with your local Game and Fish department and your Legislature, urging laws which favor the traditional guns.

Just a few thoughts for you to dwell on.

 

[roundball]

I do the same...always offer to let someone shoot...most do and have favorable reactions as you mentioned.

I think the most off-putting thing about a stranger watching someone shoot a Flintlock is that big flash of flame "right in our faces".

They don't stop to think (as I didn't the first time) that they'e been used for hundreds of years...or that they're standing there watching us fire ours with no ill effects...but as soon as you hand them the rifle, that fear of fire right in front of the eyes is strongly ingrained in most people and I think it helps to point it out and reassure them.

 

[mikelange]

Zonie --

You rock! Your advice is right on the money -- be helpful, let people shoot your stuff, and don't get in anyone's face if they don't get it. This will do more to sell other shooters on traditionally-styled guns than all the lecturing and legislating that could possibly happen.

I love that big ol' grin on the face of someone who swears up and down that one of my flinters couldn't really work, then snugs the butt to their shoulder and is proven oh, so wonderfully wrong. They love it, too, and you'd better believe I'm ready to tell them all about the affordably-priced flinters that are waiting for them out there. I even concede that there are a few fairly nice sidehammer percussion guns, too.... :haha: :haha: :haha:

 

[pondoro]

Zonie - Excellent advice! I enjoy watching the sparing that goes on here in the Muzzleloading forum over what is PC and what should be OK for the early 18th century in southwestern PA, but such arguments should stay in the family. When someone at the range admires your Pennsylvania rifle and tells his kid that it is a Hawken, please just say "thanks" and offer to let the kid (and his dad) shoot it. My mom taught me to walk by getting excited when I showed some interest, not by telling me I didn't know how!

 

[Terry D.]

I bought an inline. I like all types of weapons and an inline is a type. I prefer traditional overall and shoot them much more. I own 3 traditional and 1 inline.

In my mind, the inline is a hunting tool that I don't mind putting a scope on. So why not just use a cartridge rifle with a scope you ask? We'll, I like muzzleloaders and an inline is a type of muzzloader.

 

[David Teague]

I hope you gentlemen don't mind this repost form the "discouraged" thread as I feel my points are just as valid with this thread.

DT

Well lads,

I'm under the strong impression that all of these inline wonderguns were built so the normal cartridge hunters could extend his hunting season... thanks to all the hard work that the old time black powder hunters put into working with local Fish and Games to create a season so they could use their front stuffers in years past...

The quickest way to get those yahoos out of the woods is to once again work with Fish and Game in each of our states to get the firearm requirements rewritten to only allow traditional black powder rifles and smoothbores.

If those "wondergun" hunters are out there to bond with a black powder hunt, they should be able to make the switch to a wooden stocked, iron sighted sidelock or under hammer. If not... then they really weren't black powder shooters to begin with... Those extend hunts were created aound the whole idea that it is hard to havest game with a black powder firearm, that it does take skill, and that a limited number of Bucks would be havested... reasons the "wonderguns" negate.

Heck I used to carry my ML during the standard deer season in Oregon in the 1970's as I did not see the point in carrying a modern rife I never shot.

Just my two cents...

Cheers,

David Teague

 

[mikelange]

David --

Yours is a good idea in theory. However, the problem I see in putting it into practice is that a fairly broad definition of "traditional" will allow the use of guns that aren't -- while too strict a definition will outlaw the use of guns that might be considered marginal, in terms of their authenticity.

For instance, "no fast twist barrels" (or the sorts of bullets shot from them) would prevent the use of guns such as the Great Plains Hunter, as well as anything that shoots a minie ball, in spite of the fact that many guns of this type are 100% correct to the historical muzzleloading period. On the other hand, broadening the field to include the various sidehammers that feature fast-twist barrels will lead to arguments as to why this, that, or the other feature causes THIS gun to be banned while THAT one is okay. This discussion would get particularly ugly if the guns in question were variants of the same model. T/C used to make a line of fast-twist sidehammers that could be had with stainless barrels and synthetic stocks, or blued and walnut; which of these, if any, would you attempt to ban? If none, then why ban inlines? If only the stainless and synthetic variant, how does the stock material matter in terms of performance? If all, then it begs the question -- why the fast-twist walnut and blued variant, but not such guns as the T/C and CVA Hawkens, with their 1-48 twists? And, if you narrow the definition of what's acceptable to only historically correct guns, you put a price tag on the game that's beyond the means of many hunters. Aside from the question of fairness to those who own traditionally-styled but historically incorrect guns, there's the distinct possibility that, if you reduce the number of BP hunters to a sufficient degree, the bureaucrats involved in the process will decide that too few licenses and tags are being sold to justify the existence of an additional hunting season.

A reasonably fair rulebook could be written that eliminated inlines without substantial impact on more traditional styles of muzzleloaders, if you and I wrote it and interpretations of what we'd written were limited to what we intended. However, law and politics in the United States neither one work that way. The rules will be written by people who often have no idea what it is they're regulating, or why, and they will be interpreted by lawyers, who can take as simple a statement as "the sun shines during the day" and construe it to mean exactly the opposite.

Add in the fact that advocates in favor of inlines have equal say in the discussion, and I personally think that trying to make a legal issue of this would open a Pandora's box full of problems that none of us can even foresee. I'd rather spend my free time shooting, hunting, and building guns than fighting what looks, to me, to be a no-win battle.

 

[roundball]

I hope you gentlemen don't mind this repost form the "discouraged" thread as I feel my points are just as valid with this thread.

DT

Well lads,

I'm under the strong impression that all of these inline wonderguns were built so the normal cartridge hunters could extend his hunting season... thanks to all the hard work that the old time black powder hunters put into working with local Fish and Games to create a season so they could use their front stuffers in years past...

No question about it...if they were restricted to use only during regular gun seasons, they'd go to the back of the closets immediately.

 

[Runner]

Guys, hang it up. They outnumber you a lot more than was posted. It is that bad in the enthusiast groups that post online. It is much worse in reality. It is somewhere in the 20 to 1 category. The money machine supports the inlines because they produce revenue. Sabots, jacketed bullets 20 at a time for price a reloader gets 100 for, scopes, mounts, laser range finders, radios, and lots of other high margin items. Once those sales slow down then they start to push for the crossbow to be legalized. This is where my state is right now. Once the crossbow, scopes or red dots for them, bolts, and other stuff slows down, then it is time to push for traditional black powder cartridge guns to be included. We have been done out of our heritage by a bunch of suits in a board room with the money to have the ear of the people making the laws. The saddest thing is that there is nothing you can do about it. I am trying to get some managed hunts limited to real muzzleloading rules in my state so that those of us that still shoot muzzleloaders have a place to gather together for a hunt. Beyond that is hopeless here.
Even worse. Now a group is pushing to get so called period inlines, sideslappers, underhammers, conicals, and tube scopes allowed at the gatherings themselves. Lets face it. We live in a more more more world and having to follow rules or not participate is wrong to them. If they want it, it has to be right. They do not care if their actions destroy everything built and treasured by those before them. The only thing that counts is that they want it. It is like dealing with a bunch of 13 year olds or a bunch of locusts. Consume everything, leave nothing seems to be their motto.

I am also pushing for the end of the muzzleloader season completely in this state. Once the extra season is gone, then the so called muzzleloaders will get dumped and quit making things look bad for the real muzzleloader enthusiasts here. As it is now, three guys with orange hats and vests holding scoped inlines in a truck slowly cruising the back roads should be the poster for our so called muzzleloader season.

Sorry, but this is a hot button for me. I have three new grandson's that I doubt will ever be able to go on a muzzleloader deer hunt here in this state because of the behaviors the guys with inlines are showing to the general public all the time. I am quite sure the majority of the modern guys are hunters, not slobs. The very visable group in their ranks is making things very bad here.

 

Guys, hang it up. They outnumber you a lot more than was posted. It is that bad in the enthusiast groups that post online. It is much worse in reality. It is somewhere in the 20 to 1 category. The money machine supports the inlines because they produce revenue.

You are absolutely correct.

In-lines outnumber traditional muzzleloaders as do center-fire weapons. It will always be this way.

They are in a totally different class and I don't know why we keep trying to compare the two? Reality - get used to it, it's here to stay. :grin: