Traditions Crockett 32 ballistics help

[Sean Gadhar]

:surrender: Ok the Colorado Div. of Wildlife says" yes I can use my Crockett .32 cal. BP to hunt fall turkey . . . .IF......... If my load has 110 LBS of energy at 100 yards.

It is up to me to show that there is a load that will be 110Lbs at 100yards.

After days of looking, I found one table showing ballistics for a .32 Crockett with patched .310 diameter, 45 grain round balls shooting GOEX FFFg with foot pounds of energy ranging from 252 with 20 gr up to 448 foot pounds with 40gr, But as there was no notation of the where of the energy, I am thinking it was at the muzzle. :surrender: I have found no more info. then that.

Any one have the info I need :idunno: or know where I can find it. Is there a way to deduce the number from what I do have? like say; a .32 Crockett with patched .310 diameter, 45 grain round balls shooting at a Velocity (fps of 2117 and 448 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.

 

[George]

Any one have the info I need :idunno: or know where I can find it. Is there a way to deduce the number from what I do have? like say; a .32 Crockett with patched .310 diameter, 45 grain round balls shooting at a Velocity (fps of 2117 and 448 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.

The Hornady ballistics calculator can give you that information. Your .310", 45 gr. ball has a ballistic coefficient (BC) of .044. At 2117 fps it will have 94 ft/lb of energy at 100 yards. Kick the velocity to 2200 fps and the energy increases to 98. Can you find a load which gives a velocity greater than that?

Spence

 

[Wes/Tex]

You certainly present a challenge here. Most of the sources I've got cut off at .36 caliber guns. Did find some info in Fadala's "Black Powder Loading Manual". The Crockett came out after this book was published and I'm not familiar with it's bore dimensions, twist rate, etc. Most of the guns listed couldn't get up to the 110 fp. level because their twist rates and bore volumes cause a fall off of both accuracy and velocity at or over 2000fps. The TC Cherokee had too fast a twist that fell off at about 1600 fps. Navy's 'Penn. Flintlock' is a possible comparison but he cut off at 30 grains of FFFg at 2030fps but only 84fp of energy. Navy's "Country Boy Sidehammer" made the grade with 50 grains FFFg for 104fp of energy with 50 grains of FFFg...a few more grains would probably hit the 110fp level.Mowrey's "Squirrel Rifle" only topped out at 88fp with 30 grains FFFg. dixie's "Tennessee Squirrel Rifle" got to 93 fp with 30 grains of FFFg and might be be a similar gun. It had a 1:56" twist vs. 1:48" for the "Side Hammer".

Looks like a rifle would have to have a barrel above 30" with a twist of 1:48" or slower and something like 50 grains of FFFg to make the 110fp level. Sadly, it's just a series of guesses. Not sure why Colorado picked that level for turkey since I don't see anybody trying for turkey at 100 yards! :idunno:

 

[Sean Gadhar]

Ok I have one last thought but no info at all about them. I mean 0! never even held one... that would be Buffalo Bullets Ball-Et .32 cal. .70 grain

I guess I'll call Dixie to see if they have ballistics on them.

Unless one of you has some experience with them?

 

[Zonie]

Buy yourself a copy of the Lyman "BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK & LOADING MANUAL", 2nd edition.

Make a copy of page 147, draw a big circle around the loads listed for Pyrodex P.

At the bottom of that listing it says a 70 grain load of Pyrodex P under a .310 roundball patched with a .010 thick cloth patch (Ox-Yoke) delivers a muzzle velocity of 2488 fps with a energy of 619 ft/lbs.
At 100 yards, the books listing says that load will be traveling at 1056 fps at with a energy of 111 ft/lbs.

(Course it's up to you to say,
"This .32 officer?
Why its loaded with 70 grains of Pyrodex P.
You know...with this load she'll produce 111 ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards! Now, that's really doing something! Don't you agree?" :grin:

Oh, maybe I should mention, this load did produce a breech pressure of 25,600 psi. That's a LOT of pressure in a muzzleloader.

Now, 60 grain a load of GOEX 3Fg produced 'only' 13,000 psi breech pressure and gave a energy value of 99 ft/lbs at 100 yards.
Close enough for government work I say.
Course, I wouldn't want to dissuade you from using the load you say your using. :rotf:

 

[Sean Gadhar]

So if I loaded my .310s into a "modern" 10 bore, & shot them hot I might get 100 yard energy in the mid 60s (50% lower then out of my Crocett), but I would be within the law.

Most 10 bore (loaded ammo)meant for turkey seems to have a muzzle Velocity around 1300 fps, about 800 fps slower then out of my rifle.

Yes, I get that there are more balls hitting with a shotgun (one hopes). The point of there limit is,I think, the lethality of the individual ball.

I'm not saying I think there # is arbitrary :youcrazy: , I'm just saying it was not thought out.

 

[Sean Gadhar]

I might get 100 yard energy in the mid 60s (50% lower then out of my Crocett),.

To late to edit that is to say, The rifle would at 40gr FFFg be in the mid 90s a 50% increase over the 60s of the shotgun. I think that unmuddels it. I think :idunno:

 

[jamesthomas]

Lets say you found a load that gives you 110lbs energy at 100 yards. The question is, will it be accurate? or just print all over the paper at 20+ yards? becoming useless as a hunting load. Seems to me like they just invented a number without thinking of reality.

 

[Sean Gadhar]

Hidden under it all, there is a gun they don't like (22, 22mag :idunno: ) so they set a # based on cutting out THAT round and without thought as to what else is affected.
ff State wide,I can't hunt my dogs for rabbit during 1/2 the rabbit season, because you can't hunt with dogs during any regular Big Game season (keeps dogs from messing up big game hunts; Fine by me) But the law applies to areas where big game hunting is not allowed

 

[Billnpatti]

I was going to do some math and calculate how fast a 45 grain ball would have to be traveling to produce 100 ft. pounds of kinetic energy. Then I was going to use a ballistic calculator to see what kind of muzzle velocity would give the desired velocity at 100 yards :hmm: then........I read what Zonie had to say. Forget what I was going to do :youcrazy: and just use Zonie's advice on Goex 3f powder. Forget Pyrodex, :nono: it gives too high of a breach pressure.

I have found the .32 to be a really nice gun for small animals such as squirrels at relatively short ranges of 25 yards or less. I found it to be pretty finiky about the powder and amount that you try to feed it. Until you find exactly what it wants, it will spit balls all over your paper. :cursing: But once you hit on that perfect load, it will do a sweet job on squirrel heads. :grin: So, you may or may not be able to get your rifle to shoot well enough at those velocities to be able to hit a turkey head. :hmm: It will just take some experimenting at the range to find out. :idunno:

 

[jdkerstetter]

First, while fascinating, I'm wondering why this is in the gun building forum.

As to your problem:

Excerpted from the Colorado hunting regulations,

Chapter W-3, #303 - Manner of Take.

C. Game Birds, except Migratory Birds

1. Any rifle or handgun for dusky (blue) grouse, ptarmigan or turkey during the fall and late
seasons (except in game management units 91, 92, 951, and 96). Rifles and handguns
used for the taking of turkeys shall use bullets of at least thirty-eight (38) grains in weight,
with a manufacturer's energy rating of at least one-hundred ten (110) foot pounds at one hundred (100) yards from the muzzle.

If you only have to prove the gun is capable of delivering 100 ft/lbs at 100 yards, then buy the Lyman manual, as Zonie suggested, and show the data to them.

They don't expect you to be shooting turkey heads at 100 yards, they are only using the figures to establish a guideline. (I lived in one state that allowed any bow to be used for deer hunting, provided it was capable of launching an arrow 100 yards.....but nobody checked, that I know of.)

If they approve the gun based on that data, shoot the most accurate load you've developed. Nobody is going to be meeting you in the woods with a chronograph and scales to verify you are shooting the load capable of delivering the energy in question....and it is impossible to tell other wise, if reasonable loads are used.

Better yet, just hunt with the .32 and address the problem if you're stopped and questioned about it's use. As I read the regulations the .32 is not singled out as being under powered. You know the gun is capable of delivering the required energy, let them prove it isn't.....if it ever comes up in the first place. I see on provision in the regulations that say each Colorado hunter has to take his/her gun in to be approved before hunting. Heck, you can even carry a xerox of the page from the Lyman book with your license, if you're worried about it.

Many states have minimum caliber requirements. Most find these arbitrary at best as many don't suggest how much energy is required or how far one should shoot.

I suggest that all of these min/max laws are more than ridiculous if nobody is testing how well the shooter can shoot in the first place.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Sean Gadhar]

First, while fascinating, I'm wondering why this is in the gun building forum.
Enjoy, J.D.

*********RESULTS************

I asked in Muzzleloading Hunting Regulations on 8/14 & got one reply (it was about .36 cal. not .32)
I came here cuz you guys know stuff :wink: Look at the results of one days posting here.

Which brings me to the big :hatsoff: to you'll for your help.

 

[bubba15301]

i am glad we dont have regulations like that in Pa

 

[jdkerstetter]

No, but we have our share. For example, how about .45 caliber minimum for ML deer and bear and .40 caliber maximum for ML small game rifles.

So, everybody has to have at least two to hunt. No problem for me personally, but outfitting my three kids could prove costly.

There are plenty of other stupid PA rules/laws we can't get into on this forum. In fact, of all the states I've lived and hunted in, PA has the worst set of hunting regulations I've seen.....and that includes a 4+ year tour in California.

But, it is what it is. Just like anywhere else you live, if you love it there you take the bad with the good. Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Zonie]

Having dealt with the Game & Fish guys I know most of them need some educating when they decided to question your gun and its loads.

Use your Crockett .32 and a 70 grain powder measure and go hunt your turkey.
Take a copy of the regulations and a copy of the Lyman data for Pyrodex with you next to your hunting/fishing license.

Use your most accurate powder/patch/ball load and swear your using the load from the Lyman book.
They won't know how to check it and your data proves its legal.

Now, not knowing if this gun is a flintlock or a percussion gun, I'll move it to the Hunting Forum.

Cheers ! :grin:

 

[Sean Gadhar]

Just to finish this up, I got an e-mail from DOW saying if I use a .310 prb in a load that will graph at 2100 fps I'm good to go. I am still over the road until the 24th or so. But I'll try to post load etc when I get home and find a graph to beg borrow or ...um ...rent :blah: