Traditions Hawkens accuracy help.

[Odd-Broccoli-474]

So I purchased one of the traditions kit and built a hawkens rifle. I love it its a great rifle. My friend and I recently drew for a muzzleloader deer hunt in October. To get ready we have been trying really hard to sight our guns in. Me gun seemed to be completely wild with its shots. The first shot would be five inches 9 o’clock of center and the next would be six inches 6 o’clock. Then the next somewhere else completely wild. We think it might be because of the barrel? So we thought about just purchasing a brand new barrel and trying that. Does anyone else have these or similar issues? Any advice on what I can do to get better tighter groupings? I’m using ball and patch, and 80 gr of FFG equivalent pyrodex.

Thanks!

 

[ohio ramrod]

I think you need to try and find out why your rifle is not giving you better groups before you start getting another barrel. Have you recovered any patches to see if they are torn or burned? Many new barrels have sharp lands or crown that cut patches.Have you tried different powder charges or patch thickness?Or an over powder wads to prevent patch burning, have you weighed your balls to see if they vary, Many hand cast balls have voids in them that throw the balls of balance. I recommend you try different combinations changing only one variable at a time.

 

[Frontier's]

So I purchased one of the traditions kit and built a hawkens rifle. I love it its a great rifle. My friend and I recently drew for a muzzleloader deer hunt in October. To get ready we have been trying really hard to sight our guns in. Me gun seemed to be completely wild with its shots. The first shot would be five inches 9 o’clock of center and the next would be six inches 6 o’clock. Then the next somewhere else completely wild. We think it might be because of the barrel? So we thought about just purchasing a brand new barrel and trying that. Does anyone else have these or similar issues? Any advice on what I can do to get better tighter groupings? I’m using ball and patch, and 80 gr of FFG equivalent pyrodex.

Thanks!

Most likely you're using a thin .015 patch.

With the traditions hawken ( I have built 6 of them and still have 3 for myself 4 if you count a factory made flintlock ) you're going to want to use at least an .018" patch with a .490 round ball. Check the tang screw every 10 shots as they often loosen up unless the tang and trigger assembly has been bedded. Try the swab the bore with a water based ( or straight water ) after each shot.

Don't bother weighing balls, its a waste of time. I shoot mine out to 200 yards and it doesnt care if a ball is +/- 4 to 6 grains.

While RS or Select is a good powder, I'd suggest switching to Pyrodex P if real black powder is not available. 70gr pyrodex P, .018 to .020 patch and a .490 round ball is a heck of a shooting load in all my traditions hawken rifles.

One thing that is highly important is consistent seating pressure. If you are getting sloppy and not seating the ball with somewhat fairly consistent seating pressure, thats going to show up, especially at longer distances.

Chances are, your rifle still has the plastic sights? If so, you need to cut a dovetail for a rear sight and get something real. Plastic sights have no business being on any gun.



90gr 2fg gearhart owen black powder with a .490 round ball and .020" patch at 100 yards. Thats a killer group for such a low cost muzzleloader.


These are highly important areas to bed on the CVA & Traditions sidelocks.




This you may find helpful as well,
https://buckskinsbp.blogspot.com/2019/10/choices-galore-substitute-black-powder.html

 

[Ballshooter]

Ramrod gives good advice..I will add have you tried real black powder like Goex try 2F and 3F?You didn't say what size of ball or patch thickness are you using? If you are using the store bought pre lube patches..I would just put them in the trash. Go to Walmart or Jo Ann's fabric and look for some blue or red pillow ticking. Wash the hell out of it cut it in stripes just wide enough to cover the muzzle. Get some vegetable oil, or Murphy oil for the lube. Cut the patch strip at the muzzle and I bet it will shoot. Oh and I would start with a lower powder charge say 45 to 50 and work up. Keep us posted.

 

[Ballshooter]

Very awesome Frontier's has some sound advice!

 

[necchi]

It ain't the barrel.
It's about a learning curve. Be patient, read here about your rifle, (and those like it), in the archives. pay head to the advise you see that's repeated.
Don't fret, it's mid August,, we'll have ya dialed in by October.
But ya gotta do a little work,,
There's no secret combination or magic mix,, no magic wand,,
It's just learning a new(old) thing.

 

[dave951]

Lots of things affect accuracy. How you load, patch thickness, ball dia, powder type, garbage plastic sights. You'll also probably have to swab between shots with PRB for best accuracy.

I'm currently working with a CVA Sharpshooter with what would be described as a sewer pipe for a bore. With a 495 ball, .015 ticking patch lubed with Neatsfoot, .125 cork over powder wad, 70g 3f Old E, it does rather well. So far, I've gotten this type of results at 50yd and I think this group will tighten up a bit more. And yes, that's 3 bullets into one hole.

 

[rafterob]

Many good points already. Finding the right load is always the start. Performance from Pyrodex tends to be real close to Goex FFg black powder. At least that is what I discovered in my Traditions Hawken. My best grouping, most accurate load ended up being 70g FFg, a .495 ball and .015 patch. .490 ball is not much different for my grouping.
"Working your way up" as mentioned above, means starting at a smaller load (I'd recommend starting at 55g) shoot 3-5 shots for a group. Increase 5 grains at a time and shoot 3-5 shots again. I shoot until I have reached the highest impact point with the tightest group. You should see that stabilize somewhere around 65-75 grains of powder. SO In my case, if I find that 65, 70 and 75 grains are all shooting the same POI and similar groups, I shoot the lowest load that achieves that result. Don't adjust your sights until you have determined your best load. Then zero your sights. I sight in at 25 yards, some sight in at 50. I have found with my 3 rifles that sighting in at 25yards gives me nearly identical results at 50 yards. Then it is a matter of learning sight adjustments for longer distances, usually past 80 yards you will start to see a drop.

 

[bigstick6017555]

My take would be, polish the bore with a jag and 0000 steel wool, try different patch lubes, drop powder charge to around 70 grains, get 3f Goex, if you can not find Goex or equivalent, try Triple 7 powder 3f. Good luck

 

[Grenadier1758]

So I purchased one of the traditions kit and built a hawkens rifle. I love it its a great rifle. My friend and I recently drew for a muzzleloader deer hunt in October. To get ready we have been trying really hard to sight our guns in. Me gun seemed to be completely wild with its shots. The first shot would be five inches 9 o’clock of center and the next would be six inches 6 o’clock. Then the next somewhere else completely wild. We think it might be because of the barrel? So we thought about just purchasing a brand new barrel and trying that. Does anyone else have these or similar issues? Any advice on what I can do to get better tighter groupings? I’m using ball and patch, and 80 gr of FFG equivalent pyrodex

Thanks!

You just built the rifle from a kit, you have a new barrel.

So far, all we know o your load is that you are using 80 grains (volume measure?) of Pyrodex R and a ball and patch. Give us some more information. What's the ball diameter? What's the patch thickness? What's the patch thickness? What's the patch lubrication? Is the crown at the muzzle smooth or is the crown sharp? Are the sights tight in the dovetails? Your description of the impacts would seem to be loose sights. Are you shooting in bright sunlight with variable clouds often shading the sights? Were the shooting conditions windy? What do the fired patches look like? Any holes or torn areas?

 

[BS]

Do not epoxy bed behind tang, can cause splits.

With the recoil area bedded, you may be ok, but don't take a chance.

 

[Frontier's]

Do not epoxy bed behind tang, can cause splits.

With the recoil area bedded, you may be ok, but don't take a chance.

View attachment 89561

BS. You bed that entire tang area. Unlike some on here, I actually am a shooter and bedding the tang fully, is a must. What causes splits is leaving gaps all the way around and having the tang screw come loose and the tang slams back into the wood. The original barrel to my traditions hawken has a few thousand shots through it. Everything from round ball to 440gr conicals.

 

[Erwan]

While RS or Select is a good powder, I'd suggest switching to Pyrodex P if real black powder is not available. 70gr pyrodex P, .018 to .020 patch and a .490 round ball is a heck of a shooting load in all my traditions hawken rifles.

That's right, when I had my Traditions Hawken St. Louis .50 it was a pretty good shooter at 100 yards without scope or vernier tang sight, just open sight... the only different for me was the thickness of the patch : 0.010" (0,25 mm), 60g of FFFg and lubed with neatsfoot oil....
Odd-Broccoli, look inside with a bit of cotton wool on your jag if no roughness, if white hairs remained in the stripes this one must be used and polished a little by shooting, possibly a bit of JB paste will do the job if it is more important....
I sold it few years ago and the guy is happy of it...

Here what was the result just before I sold this rifle (15 shots in each target at 100 yards):

 

[BS]

BS. You bed that entire tang area. Unlike some on here, I actually am a shooter and bedding the tang fully, is a must. What causes splits is leaving gaps all the way around and having the tang screw come loose and the tang slams back into the wood. The original barrel to my traditions hawken has a few thousand shots through it. Everything from round ball to 440gr conicals.

Glad that it works for you, but all modern rifle do not epoxy behind the tang, no difference in a muzzleloader.
1000s of shots or not, my opinion is Don't Do It!
Choices, life is about choices, choose wisely!

 

[Frontier's]

you want to remove ALL movement, which is what makes cracks and chips in wood. Anyone that says to leave a gap or not bed that area simply doesnt know what they are talking about PERIOD. When you bed recoil lugs do you just bed the bottom? No, you do the sides, the bottom... Why? Because thats where all the space and movement is! Its not rocket science.

 

[deermanok]

You didn't mention the distance you're shooting from.
With any new gun, I like to start off close, 25 yards.
Are you shooting off a bench with a good rest?
Try some different thickness of patches.
Follow through on the shot. Don't take your eyes off the target during the shot sequence.
Pay attention to your loading routine. Do it the same every time.

 

[BS]

Have we found out what the patches look like?

 

[Sam squanch]

Weigh the balls! I once did an experiment . Got a box of swaged round balls, separated them by weight. For fun shot a few groups with the very light ones. Terrible accuracy! And the variation of ball weights in just one box was an eye opener!

 

[hanshi]

I think about everything has been discussed and suggested, but I'll humbly mention a few things. I've never found weighed balls to shoot any better than unsorted ones, I also consider it a waste of time. As far as bedding goes I've never done it with any gun and doubt it always makes a difference; a waste of time for me once again. Yes, read your fired patches and try different thicknesses; plus I agree with Frontier's about any plastic sights. All screws should be snug as well as the barrel keys.

No offense intended but have you had previous experience with primitive open sights? They represent quite an adjustment for those who've never been used to them. Traditions rifles have very good barrels and I've never fired one that didn't give excellent accuracy. You have plenty of time to get everything settled in and ready for deer season. Just need to work on it.

 

[Odd-Broccoli-474]

I think you need to try and find out why your rifle is not giving you better groups before you start getting another barrel. Have you recovered any patches to see if they are torn or burned? Many new barrels have sharp lands or crown that cut patches.Have you tried different powder charges or patch thickness?Or an over powder wads to prevent patch burning, have you weighed your balls to see if they vary, Many hand cast balls have voids in them that throw the balls of balance. I recommend you try different combinations changing only one variable at a time.

I have seen some patches and they are burnt on the edges. What does that mean? I havent weighed the balls, I just purchased a box of .490 speer round balls. My pillow ticking is TC the prelunes stuff I think is .010. But I could be mistaken.