Transition powders

[zimmerstutzen]

Been doing some research on old powder companies, and found two references to smokeless and semi smokeless powders that were to be used in place of black powder. One can even gave the substitute measures. Obviously this is a touchy subject and smokeless should never be used in a muzzleloader. Were those old bulk powders really that low pressure or were they just dangerously touting their wares?

Some of the old timers I shot with 30 years ago, claimed that they couldn't understand why somebody would try to develop a substitute black powder,(like Golden or pyrodex) that there had been some substitutes " back in the day" and they weren't as good as black then either.

 

[nkbj]

Are you talking about BP cartridges that were later loaded using non-BP propellants?

 

[TFoley]

According to my 1903 Sears Roebuck catalogue, there were shotguns back then proofed for 'white powder' a kind of half-way-house between BP and Nitro.

Maybe this is what he is referring to?

tac

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Specifically, Laflin & Rand's "Sharpshooter" Powder
on the reverse of the can, it says "Smokeless powder for use in Black Powder Rifles" and then has a table for how much to use in various rifles by caliber of the bore.

 

[mhb]

Sharpshooter is a dense, double-based (20% nitroglycerine in the final formulation, >30% in the original formula) powder with burning characteristics which make it suitable for use in large-capacity BP cases. It is used in much smaller weights (and volumes), and cannot be used volume-for-volume with BP.

It has a very sharp burning curve, and it is easy to get into trouble with high pressures with only small increases in charge weight. It is noticeably erosive when used at the top charge levels, due to the high nitroglycerine content, rather like early cordite. It hasn't been manufactured since, probably, the beginning of WW2. I've used it, and don't recommend that any remaining quantities be loaded these days, as there are much better powders for the same uses.

There were other early low-pressure smokeless powders intended for use in BP arms, including true bulk types, which could be used with the same volumetric measures intended for BP (though usually in shotguns).

Finally, there were semi-smokeless types compounded of BP mechanically mixed with (usually) guncotton or another form of straight nitrocellulose. These powders are mostly long gone, and not to be regretted, as they are somewhat dangerous to store and load.

Today, we have a couple of good powders intended to fill the BP cartridge niche, for BP equivalent velocities and pressures in cartridges: 5744 and 4759. I've used both and recommend them above any of the earlier types.

Finally, FWIW, there was no such thing as a commercial 'White Powder' - it was sort of a generic, advertising term for smokeless powder, in the early days when shooters were as yet unfamiliar with any propellants but BP.

mhb - Mike

 

[BrownBear]

I have a bunch of old reloading manuals dating waaaay back, including loads for Sharpshooter. Neither here nor there, but the thing you notice is the very narrow range of loads, indicating rapid pressure build-up.

When I was a kid I "inherited" a number of cans of the stuff from an elderly family friend. Good thing they made guns stronger than enthusiastic kids, but I sure couldn't say the same thing about brass. :shocked2: Lucky I didn't blow up a gun, but it sure taught me to be reverent about reloading manuals and max charges. Wish I still had the cans, but I don't regret the passing of the powder.

I wouldn't consider using it in a muzzleloader if I had a ton of it sitting and waiting.

 

[Jason Lewis]

none of them were designed for muzzleloading guns. i know that king's semi smokeless was very popular with the BPC shotgunners of the day.

 

[mhb]

BB:
Yes. I acquired a small quantity of Sharpshooter many years ago, and decided to try it IAW contemporary loading data, in the .45-70.

Loaded 20 rounds with a charge that should have given the 500gr Infantry bullet ca. 1200fps. I don't know what the velocity actually was, not having a chronograph at the time, but I did learn what a peculiar sound that big bullet makes going down-range sideways. Keyholes at 25 yards.

Shot a total of 6 rounds - pressures didn't SEEM to be excessive, but investigation afterward revealed that the bullet bases had been fused and gas-cut, and the bore was nearly lead plated. I didn't shoot the remaining 14 rounds.

I decided to experiment no more with Sharpshooter - though I still have some left, more than 40 years later.

mhb - Mike

 

[Jim Blair]

White powder,a lot of the early bulk smokeless powders were white in color including DuPont Bulk Smokeless introduced in1893 and produced up into the late 50s early 60s-

Goex's short lived "Clear Shot" powder was very similar in grain and ballistically to the old DuPont Schuetzen powder.Too bad it didn't survive.The King's Semi-Smokeless powder looks like BP,I have a partial can,just for lookin' not shootin'.

 

[mhb]

Jim:
I was aware of the actual color of many of the early smokeless and bulk-type powders (the early Pyro was pink).

My point, however, was that none of the manufacturers of such powders ever referred to them as 'white powder', so far as I am aware.

And the only place I have encountered the term is on such inexpensive arms as the various 'White Powder Wonder' single shot shotguns from around the turn of the 20th century.

mhb - Mike

 

[Paul_R]

Today, we have a couple of good powders intended to fill the BP cartridge niche, for BP equivalent velocities and pressures in cartridges: 5744 and 4759. I've used both and recommend them above any of the earlier types.

I like Trail Boss. It makes my 45-70's actually pleasant to shoot.

 

[mhb]

Trail Boss is a useful powder, too. But it seems to suffer from the 'peaky' nature of Sharpshooter, referred to earlier, whereby a small increase in charge makes for unpredictable jumps in pressure.

Trail Boss seems to be at its best in true Cowboy Action - type loads, in which velocities and pressures are kept at or below the standard for the caliber.

mhb - Mike

 

[Paul_R]

Actually I've found Trail Boss to be the most forgiving powder of any type I've ever used. It'll give you 900-1100 fps with a 405gr bullet and you can shoot it all day long. Wanna know how you find the max load? Mark the case where your bullet base is when seated and fill to that level with powder. It's that easy! The only thing it doesn't like is being compressed.

 

[mhb]

PaulR:
I don't see any disagreement here. The original .45-70 405gr. load gave ca. 1320fps in the rifle, and pressures were not over 25kpsi.
The 500gr. bullet adopted in the early 1880's achieved ca. 1250fps with the same charge and similar pressures.
We agree that Trail Boss should not be compressed, and the velocities you report are less than the full BP loads, with, presumably, maximum pressures within the safe level established for the trapdoor. Attempting to achieve the full BP velocities would require compressed charges and, also presumably, pressures above the safe level.
I have to stick with my statement that Trail Boss is not the best smokeless powder for full-power equivalent loading in at least some BP rifle cartridges.

mhb - Mike

 

[Paul_R]

I wasn't arguing Mike :hatsoff:

 

[Jim Blair]

Jim:
I was aware of the actual color of many of the early smokeless and bulk-type powders (the early Pyro was pink).

My point, however, was that none of the manufacturers of such powders ever referred to them as 'white powder', so far as I am aware.

And the only place I have encountered the term is on such inexpensive arms as the various 'White Powder Wonder' single shot shotguns from around the turn of the 20th century.

mhb - Mike

That was for the benefit of others on this thread who aren't all that familiar with older powders,not aimed at you specifically.It's the way replies work on this forum unless you click on reply to a particular person it names the person in the previous post.Interestingly enough when IMR introduced their White Hot pellets in 2009 the original press releases marketed it as the only "white gunpowder".I'd like to find one of those "White Powder Wonder" marked shotguns in something better than worn out condition to go with my old powder can and vintage loading tool collection.

 

[Jason Lewis]

this is a good thread boys and very informative, just try stay away from modern smokeless loadings and powders.