Treatise on shooting a Petronel

[Rudyard]

I have been rash enough to make two of them ,the first for the Ship replica of' The Golden Hinde '(the crews preferred spelling) its now in a Winnipeg Museum along with a rude Caliver I also made with kit entire for the Gunner 'Sam the Mariner ' . I hunted Wood pigeons with both and shot the Caliver at Bisley's Short Siberia Range MLAGB Champs in 1974 if not in any match ,
I don't recall the Petronel as too unhandy but likley was .It was at least bigger than the last one I made recently as it came out small & so unhandy I gave up the' from the chest' notion & held & shot it like you would a Jap Matchlock only it didn't have the snap lock however results whern't so bad considering. Would I go after a wild pig?' No'. but a bunny well be ok with that if the bunny is unlikey to oblige . As ergonomic designs go the Petronel was a failure I think . But the engravings' dont lie So they must have used such awkward guns regardless of our views in long hind sight . Great topic anyway .
Regards Rudyard

Added pics showing Petronels

 

[cyten]

It has been a fascinating read in this thread. I dont know anything really about these but can add this page from a 17th century Chinese document on firearms

 

[TobJohn]

It has been a fascinating read in this thread. I dont know anything really about these but can add this page from a 17th century Chinese document on firearms

View attachment 252681

Given the rest and lever for the trigger, I wonder if that is a Chinese illustration of a European petronel musket? From what I have read, some of these Chinese arms compendiums include all known weapons, including European weapons they have come in contact with.

This forum really needs a Chinese arms expert, or someone fluent in mandarin...

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Hmmmm, doesn't the extreme curvature of the butt make this a prime candidate for a broken stock? I got some carbine length oct-to-round 58-cal barrels and want to make one ... but orienting the grain correctly is a concern.

 

[TobJohn]

Hmmmm, doesn't the extreme curvature of the butt make this a prime candidate for a broken stock? I got some carbine length oct-to-round 58-cal barrels and want to make one ... but orienting the grain correctly is a concern.

After doing more research... I think most of the time they just didn't care...

These all look like they have some needlessly fragile stock shapes:

This is an over 20lbs musket and the photo is only *slightly* distorted. I have a really low res one that is of a better angle and its stock looks like a boomerang

German military Petronels often had metal bands reinforcing them, at least:

 

[Canute Rex]

Here's a breastplate that was dug up at Jamestown, so early 17th c. Note the added plate on the right shoulder. The researchers reasoned that it was an attempt to make shouldering a musket easier. Whether or not they did generally shoulder muskets or were able to shoulder muskets in a practical sense, it seems there was a desire to do so.

 

[TobJohn]

Here's a breastplate that was dug up at Jamestown, so early 17th c. Note the added plate on the right shoulder. The researchers reasoned that it was an attempt to make shouldering a musket easier. Whether or not they did generally shoulder muskets or were able to shoulder muskets in a practical sense, it seems there was a desire to do so.

View attachment 253143

Based on the talks from their YouTube channel, it sounds like that was more of a solution to deal with the combat with the Powhattan, because the breastplate had a justifiable utility against bows and clubs.

Already by the first quarter of the 16th century, gunners had mostly abandoned armor.

I have been wondering if the smaller petronels were used with a cavalry cuirass, due to sources calling them cavalry arms. Hopefully something that can be tested one day...

 

[cyten]

Given the rest and lever for the trigger, I wonder if that is a Chinese illustration of a European petronel musket? From what I have read, some of these Chinese arms compendiums include all known weapons, including European weapons they have come in contact with.

This forum really needs a Chinese arms expert, or someone fluent in mandarin...

This document is a list of arms that were tested by the Chinese military at the time

 

[TobJohn]

This document is a list of arms that were tested by the Chinese military at the time

Harvard Mirador Viewer

Found an online version of the complete document. Now to learn Mandarin...

 

[Canute Rex]

Based on the talks from their YouTube channel, it sounds like that was more of a solution to deal with the combat with the Powhattan, because the breastplate had a justifiable utility against bows and clubs.

Already by the first quarter of the 16th century, gunners had mostly abandoned armor.

I have been wondering if the smaller petronels were used with a cavalry cuirass, due to sources calling them cavalry arms. Hopefully something that can be tested one day...

The breastplate itself was to deal with clubs and arrows, but most breastplates didn't have that added tab of iron at the right shoulder. The theory is that the butt of the musket would hook into the angle between the tab and the rest of the breastplate and not drop onto the bicep of the shooter.

 

[Rudyard]

Not having a breast plate I tried to make do with just the breast. After many contortions I concluded it was either too small or me too big for it, and I ended up shooting it like a Japanese M lock only it lacked the snap lock but worked once I got used to it . But a discerning patron wanted it .so Ile have to make another or stick with my other M locks (Thayve been fretting that I've been neglecting them ) .You know how Matchlocks are .
Regards Rudyard

 

[TobJohn]

Not having a breast plate I tried to make do with just the breast. After many contortions I concluded it was either too small or me too big for it, and I ended up shooting it like a Japanese M lock only it lacked the snap lock but worked once I got used to it . But a discerning patron wanted it .so Ile have to make another or stick with my other M locks (Thayve been fretting that I've been neglecting them ) .You know how Matchlocks are .
Regards Rudyard

Hey, I resemble that remark!

 

[TobJohn]

Another battle scene with petronels, including mounted harquebusiers using them! The Battle of Coutras occurred only a couple years before the artist's death, so a very contemporary depiction. Additionally, notice the reiter/cuirassier vs lancer combat at the bottom.

 

[Billy-by-gosh]

Hmmmm, doesn't the extreme curvature of the butt make this a prime candidate for a broken stock? I got some carbine length oct-to-round 58-cal barrels and want to make one ... but orienting the grain correctly is a concern.

Please forgive the belated response regarding the extreme curvature of the buttstock and relative grain structure. Can't help but wonder: did any of the makers utilize the ancient process of STEAM BENDING the wood to retain the integrity of the grain?

 

[TobJohn]

Please forgive the belated response regarding the extreme curvature of the buttstock and relative grain structure. Can't help but wonder: did any of the makers utilize the ancient process of STEAM BENDING the wood to retain the integrity of the grain?

For a lot of them, it looks like the grain was not really matched to the stock style, so probably not?

However… i have seen a higher resolution image of this gun and the bottom half of the extreme curved butt stock is a separate grafted piece that looks to have a vertical oriented grain

 

[Billy-by-gosh]

For a lot of them, it looks like the grain was not really matched to the stock style, so probably not?

However… i have seen a higher resolution image of this gun and the bottom half of the extreme curved butt stock is a separate grafted piece that looks to have a vertical oriented grain
View attachment 264927

Thanks for your response. Using the photos I couldn't discern much of the grain with old eyes. Interesting that they went to a vertical spliced joint solution in your example. I've toyed with the idea of doing a steam bent stock but lack the experience in that endeavor...at my age it appears doubtful.

 

[Rudyard]

Please forgive the belated response regarding the extreme curvature of the buttstock and relative grain structure. Can't help but wonder: did any of the makers utilize the ancient process of STEAM BENDING the wood to retain the integrity of the grain?

Sure best to have grain naturally curved last I made did have ,the first one for' Golden Hinde' gunner not sure been years since ,like 1973 but its in a Museum in Winnipeg belongs the Gunner Sam who sailed on her its in the Peg because his earlier ship as gunner was the' Nonesuch' the first Hudsons Bay vessel now resides there inside a museum . I first met Sam in Horeshoe Bay BC but worked on the' Hinde' when rigging her out in Hinks Yards in Appledore Devon where I delivered the two matchlocks & kit .Might have got on as crew but had bussiness in India so wasn't to be .kind of the road not taken' always fancied deep water sail never been sea sick & can sing' off key' Sea shanties with the best of them .Made it up with a Cayman Island Tramp and steam ships .Steam & Black powder are related elements you cant push a button &' demand 'something ,You got to jolly them both to get the best of them .Bit like Sam Wellers coaches & guns in Pickwick tales .
Being whimsical Rudyard

 

[Pukka Bundook]

For a petronel, this stock treatment makes an awful lot of sense!

 

[TobJohn]

For a petronel, this stock treatment makes an awful lot of sense!

View attachment 265947

You REALLY need to try making one of those, or two, and sell one to me

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Of all the petronels Tob, I like these the best!

Yes, I wouldn't mind making one like that.
or two....