Trigger bar proximity to sear

[Old Salt]

I know when installing a simple single trigger the idea is to finish the installation with the trigger bar in contact with the sear when the lock is on full ****. Basically to eliminate take up on the trigger.

And I know the proper fore and aft location for a double set trigger but I've never read about the ideal depth. In my mind when the lock is on full **** and the triggers are set you would want the trigger bars as close to the sear as possible if not just touching. The idea being less distance equates to faster lock activation.

In my limited experience with two sizes of Davis double set triggers on Lancaster rifles with Siler locks that puts the trigger plate very deep into the wood.

I've thought about adding some form of sizing ring to the sear bar.

The only conditon I can foresee is the shooter would be forced to set the triggers before cocking the lock.

Has anyone ever tried to close the gap between the trigger bars and the sear bar? How did you do it?

Thanks,

Salt

 

[paulvallandigham]

Have you ever handled any gun with a "hair trigger"?? ie, one that is set so light, and with No "creep" that it goes off as soon as the trigger is touched???

Not only are these triggers unsafe, but they are next to impossible to use in any hunting or " social " situation.

I think you are trying to get rid of "slack", or " slop" as some smiths call it. This is free movement of the trigger before the trigger touches the sear bar. I happen to like slack in my triggers for a safety factor when fingers are cold, and I am bringing those sights to bear on a deer.

Just like with target pistols, and rifles, I have seen trigger stops placed in various places to eliminate slack, but it varies as to where those screws are placed based on the lock, and the type of trigger used. The problem with trying to do this is that there needs to be clearance for the sear bar to move up and down, so you can move it into and out of both the half-****, and full **** notches. So, I don't think its practical to try to eliminate all the slack.

I have seen one gun where a screw was drilled though the back end of the trigger, so that it butted against the trigger bar to prevent "slack". I saw a picture of another trigger where a piece was welded or soldered to the side of a single bladed trigger, and an adjustment screw was threaded thru this extra piece of metal, so that it prevented slack. I could not see what the screw was butting against, but there are very few options considering the location of the trigger plate to the internal lock parts. Those are two ideas you can consider.

"Creep" is the movement of the sear after the trigger makes contact with it, until the nose of the sear slips out of the full **** notch in the tumbler. This is where adjustment screws, often done through the tumbler, limit the amount of distance the sear nose can come into the full **** notch.

Finally, trigger stops are used to stop the movement of the trigger as soon as the sear is released from the full **** notch. Some are mounted to the back of the trigger, others are screwed through the trigger, or from the back of the trigger guard to the trigger. They stop " after-travel", or "over-travel" of the trigger. And, some trigger stops are located up inside the stock, and inside the trigger mechanism. limiting the amount the trigger can lift after the sear is released.

A trigger is similar in function to a teeter totter, in that there is ONE pivot, or fulcrum , and metal on both sides of the pivot. You can limit the movement of either end of the pivot by blocking the movement of one or the other ends of the teeter totter. With a trigger in any gun, the problems arise when you have to accommodate other moving parts in close proximity to the trigger. Without seeing the lock, and trigger, its pretty hard to recommend a Perfect solution for you. :thumbsup:

 

[Walks with fire]

My TC PA Hunter has a single trigger with a large bow for a trigger gaurd. The trigger has a spring that pushes the trigger back to contact the sear bar (no take-up) and I swap out the trigger sear spring with a ligher one to make it lighter to pull. I do not like double or set triggers for hunting and I hate the trigger gaurds that don't let me grip right around the stock.

I also have an RMC which uses a L&R Late English waterproof lock and a short bar L&R single trigger with shotgun style trigger gaurd. The sear spring (bar not coil) on this lock is perfect and so is the trigger pull. No need to tinker with it; no creep, no slack and perfect weight of pull. Makes an ideal trigger/lock combo for a hunting rifle in my opinion. This lock/trigger combo is every bit as smooth and light as any of my Browning A-boltII centerfires.

 

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I have an older "assembeled from parts available" flinter smooth barrel .58 from New England area that has a piece of brass soldered on the top edge of the trigger to eliminate most "Travel" to engage the sear bar. The added on piece looks to have been there for many years. There is about 1/4" movement of the trigger to contact. Some of that movement is due to wear into the brass added on piece so I will estimate the planned movement of trigger to contact was about half that distance or 1/8".
I am very happy with it as is. I apoligise I cannot get a foto of it as the rifle is packed away. We return to Peru in 10 days.
May you all have a Blessed Year.

 

[Birddog6]

I have built them (for me) with no slop in them, but have eventually taken off a tad of metal on the height of the triggerbar as to put the slop back in them, as I don't feel comfortable with them not having any, as there is a fine line I don't want to cross, in the physical aspect of full or partial engagement of the nose of the sear.......... By taking out all of the play you don't actually know how much engagement there is, as you now cannot see, hear, and feel it.
When youhear that audible click you assume it is of the full sear engagement as it has no obstruction of the sear arm to be spring pushed to the full position, and a little off the sear arm wiggle of the trigger assures you that it is fully engaged.

On almost every rifle I have built, I have to add metal to the triggerbars. I want the triggerplate flush with the underside of the stock (not sunk in) & I want the triggerbars up Very close to the sear arm so there is just barely any play in the trigger at full ****. And on some I have put lil springs above the trigger to keep the rattle out of them trigger, but I like to be able to feel the very slight take up of slack at the trigger before it touches the arm.

Also, should there be any humidity changes in the rifle going from one part of the USA to another when it goes to it's home, I have a tad of wiggle room there, rather than crossing the line of full engagement to half engagement & possibly being unsafe because of humidity & changes in the wood.

On a single trigger, I like 3# of triggerpull & about 3/16" of travel before it trips the sear. Sometimes this is accomplished in a hour, sometimes it takes me all day to get it where I want it. :wink:

 

[Old Salt]

Paul,

I understand what you are saying about super sensitive trigger pulls. I don't ever set my triggers that light.

The way I see it the adjustment for trigger pull won't be affected by closing the gap between the trigger bar and the sear.

You are right that any metal added to the sear requires clearance for operation.

Salt

 

[Old Salt]

Birddog6,

What method do you use to add metal to the trigger bar?

Since it is the set trigger that makes contact with the sear do you only add metal to one trigger bar or both?

 

[ron ward]

old salt,
typicly a double set double bar trigger (one that can be used set or unset), has to have a bit of (slop) before contact. just a little clearance that allows the trigger to have enough travel to release the trip before the bar on that same trigger starts to release the sear. if it has no clearance and is in contact with the sear when set, you will feel the weight of the regular trigger pull instead of the much reduced weight of the set trigger pull. by the way, the "slop" is called stage. as in "single stage trigger" or double stage trigger" the first stage of a double stage trigger is the free pull distance as that so called slop is taken up and the bar comes in contact with the sear... the second stage is it's release pull.
DS triggers are actually both single and doule stage. in the unset condition it is double stage because of the above requirement and in the set condition it is single stage because the trip sear is engaged and the release pull is immediate.

 

[Old Salt]

Merlin,

I see what you mean. I didn't think about the initial movement of the forward trigger.

Thanks,

Salt

 

[Stophel]

For single triggers, the trigger should have just a hair amount of play when the lock is at half ****. This is typically the lowest position of the sear. You will have some play in the trigger with the gun cocked, oh, horror of horrors. :shocked2: This makes it safe for half ****, and gives you a little bit of insurance against wood shrinkage changing trigger contact. I don't bother with the vaunted "one position sear". It is VERY difficult to actually achieve, and is of dubious advantage anyway, in my opinion.

For a set trigger, I've never had one that was tall enough to get close to the sear anyway...I build pre1790 style guns that aren't quite so scrawny. I always have to build/modify set triggers to make them tall enough to even function.

 

[Birddog6]

Birddog6,

What method do you use to add metal to the trigger bar?

Since it is the set trigger that makes contact with the sear do you only add metal to one trigger bar or both?

Normally I silver solder them additional metal to the tops of the trigger bars. And I usually add to both of them as to get the front trigger to pull 3# you have to have it closer to the sear arm than what the book says to put it. But by doing that it puts the set trigger bar hitting right on the end & I don't like that, so I usually make it a tad longer & taller as well.

:wink:

 

[ron ward]

there's actually two schools of thought about the free travel of a set trigger.
one is that a little free travel allows the trip to build some momentum and a lighter set spring can be used and the other is that the trip bar should be close as possible using the spring's weight to trip the sear.
which is better... i don't know. the first is easier to set up, but it can disturb the aim before the shot, when the trip slams into the sear. the second is less likey to upset the aim before the shot but has been known to interfere with the shot's followthrough as the gun goes off.....horse-apiece?
either one you want to believe in is why you don't see set triggers on target guns any more. before the '60's or so, they were still a common site. it can be prooven by dry firing a set triggered gun with a scope from a good rest and noting the cross hairs position on the target before and after the dryfire. it will not be the same.
of course, all of that makes little to no difference to the guns here...they were built in the "hey day" of the set trigger and they are proper on the guns.....they look cool, too!

 

[Zonie]

I wouldn't trust a sidelock gun that does not have a small bit of clearance between the trigger bar and the sear when the gun is at full ****.

If the trigger bar does not have any clearance between itself and the sear arm then it is actually keeping the sear nose from fully engaging the full **** notch.

Any movement due to the stock wood growing or shrinking because of changes in the humidity could make such a gun downright dangerous.

To my thinking, a properly fit trigger in a fully cocked gun should just have a hairs worth of movement before contact with the sear arm is made.

As for set triggers, the double lever, double set style are designed to have both blades standing clear of the sear arm.

The single lever, double set trigger's blade is always in contact with the sear arm until it is "set". Then, it stands well clear of the sear arm. The front trigger on one of these trigger assemblies never touches the sear arm under any condition.
By the way. If a gun uses one of these single lever, double set triggers it is impossible to **** the gun without first setting the trigger.

 

[ron ward]

zonie,
i don't know if you were directing your post towards mine, but i re-read my post several times to make sure and i could not find anywhere i said that there should be or is no clearance between the trip bar, the front trigger bar and the sear bar anywhere in my post. you are absolutly right, there should by all means be clearance.
i don't mean this to be argumentive or sarcastic in any way. being that it is the trigger, i just want to be sure i didn't post something that would be taken as bad advice. :grin: :v :thumbsup:

 

[Packdog]

The single lever, double set trigger's blade is always in contact with the sear arm until it is "set". Then, it stands well clear of the sear arm. The front trigger on one of these trigger assemblies never touches the sear arm under any condition.
By the way. If a gun uses one of these single lever, double set triggers it is impossible to **** the gun without first setting the trigger.

Zonie,
Respectfully I disagree. You can install a set screw under the mainspring that will allow you to **** the lock without setting the trigger. The screw will stop the downward travel of the mainspring, stopping the upward travel of the rear trigger arm before it hits the sear. You may also need to bend the sear arm up a little but it can be done and every now and then you can get the perfect spring shape / rear trigger that will not require the set screw.
This is making the assumtion you make your own triggers.

 

[ron ward]

packdog,
you are correct, a double set single lever trigger can be built so that the set spring will bottom out on the trigger plate and the set trigger's bar is at rest away from the searbar. upon setting the trip the spring is loaded. when released, the trip is driven by the spring and as the spring bottoms on the triggerplate free travel and inertia of the trip slams the searbar to release the sear. these triggers usually have a very light spring that is overtaken by the trips inertia during free travel. that light spring's purpose is to keep the trip away from the searbar and lightly resting on the set spring's nose when the trip is not set. the light spring ensures that the trip won't accidently travel forward and release the sear from a sudden shock of the butstock hitting the ground or being bumped in the butplate. the key is to make the light spring the correct tension to do it;s job and not be so strong in the trip's free travel that inconsistant release is a problem.
these are actually very easy to make and work great. with this set up the gun can be cocked either set or unset, but the front trigger will only release the sear if the trip is set because the front trigger has no bar. some were made so that the rear trigger would actually be able release the sear when pulled through it's full travel, but most had a dog built into the trip sear above the trip bar that would only allow the trip to travel far enough to contact the sear bar when the front was pulled. pretty much, strictly a target trigger, although one could use it for long distance hunting where shots are pretty much deliberate and solidly based.

 

[Old Salt]

You all have been very generous with your knowledge. I appreciate the well thought out replies.

I was looking over my current project this evening and it appears there is a fair amount of extra wood on the lower edge of the stock, approaching 1/4". I now see why I have the impression of going deep into the wood. It looks like the trigger bars/sear will be as close as I wanted after installation and removal of the excess wood.

On my other two rifles one is set up in very close proximity while the other is more widely spaced. Fortunately, I've not had any failure to operate on either rifle. I only use the set trigger function.

I'll make the current installation with a hairs breath of space between the two parts.

Thanks,
Salt

 

[Zonie]

I was speaking in general about the single lever, double set trigger and specifically about the commercially available triggers of that style.

Speaking of the commercially available triggers, without a set screw to stop the spring, one of the few advantages I can see about using one of these triggers is that because the lever exerts a pressure on the sear arm when it is uncocked or has been released is that pressure keeps the sear from re-engaging the body of the tumbler, rather like a simple trigger that is held back when it is fired.
Because the nose of the sear is held away from the tumbler, it will not try to engage the half **** notch, thus, a lock without a fly can be used.

If a set screw is inserted which limits the downward force of the mainspring, there is nothing to keep the nose of the sear from trying to re-engage the half **** notch as the hammer falls, which to my thinking defeats the purpose of this style of trigger.
In fact, it makes the triggers operation equal to a double lever double set trigger without the bonus of being able to release the lock without first setting the rear trigger.

At least that's the way I see it.

 

[ron ward]

zonie,
i sat back and started visualizing all the different methods of tripping sears, it took a while,andonce again experience shine through, you are right!....
i kept forgetting that the sear has it's own spring pushing the nose into the tumbler. unless that spring can be overtaken and the sear made to stay away from the tumbler, the half **** notch, is going to catch the sear no matter what. and that a fly on the tumbler won't be of any help, because it requires that the sear is pushed into the tumber to do it's job.
i can see where some of these trigger systems will work in a target only gun, where a "safety" isn't really needed, thus they don't really even need a half-**** notch on the tumbler. the gun is either loaded, cocked and fired or not loaded or cocked at all, but that certainly won't work for hunting.
it 's good to have some experienced guys like you here that are persistant enough to get thier point across and make us all think!!...my hat's off to you, sir! and i have learned some more again!