Trigger does not work

[Thumb]

I have this dual trigger set up on a muzzleloader that I acquired from my grandfather but when I pull the hammer back neither trigger will work. I know the rear is a set trigger but that's all I know. I do not even know if I'm setting the hammer correctly. I did take the trigger and hammer assembly out and cleaned it up and actually worked everything and it all seems to be OK.

It's almost like the triggers are not making contact with the hammer mechanism.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Here's a picture of one of the guns if that will help.

 

[Lonegun1894]

When you **** the hammer, do you hear one click or two? The first one is the half-****, and the triggers shouldn't work in this position. The second is the full-**** position that your hammer needs to be in so you can fire the gun. Make sure you hear the second click. The rear trigger is the set trigger that sets the light pull on the front one, but it should not fire the rifle. The front one will fire set or unset though, the difference is that it should be very light when set, but somewhat heavier when unset. I hope that makes sense, the weight (but not the pull lenght) is almost like the difference between shooting a double-action revolver with the hammer cocked (set) or uncocked (unset), if that analogy helps. This may not be the problem, but this is the first thing that comes to mind. I just can't think of anything else that would cause this issue since you said you removed everything and it all seemed to work properly. Could you please try that and see if this was the problem? If not, then I'm sure someone much more knowledgeable than me will be along shortly to solve your problem, and get my head screwed on straight--and we will both learn something.

 

[Thumb]

When I pull the hammer back, it clicks once then if I continue to pull it back further, it gets pretty hard to pull but will go back further and lock but no click. If I pull the set trigger really hard it clicks but the front trigger does nothing. I can actually push the hammer back into the first click position but that's as far as it will go unless I take the mechanism out. I think something is out of wack because it doesn't feel right. I shot this gun many times about 40+ years ago but I can't remember how the pull was but it couldn't have been that hard because I was only 10 or so then.

FYI, I got the second gun out and when I pull the hammer back it does click twice but the hammer goes back down if I let it go. Also, it does not click unless I hold the set trigger back so I must be doing something wrong because both of them shouldn't be having this problem.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Sounds like your triggers are set up so that they have to be "set" before the rifle can be cocked.

It is a result of the rear trigger bearing on the sear under its own spring pressure.

This is not considered correct by most people but it is common, especially on target guns. It is not the safest arrangement and the shooter must be aware of it.

It can normally be corrected by a competent 'smith or gun builder who is familiar with lock and trigger geometry. They may only require adjustment but may need some "work" to be allow the lock to be cocked normally.

Now, never let the hammer fall on the nipple with out protecting it with either a cap or a thick piece of leather over the nipple to prevent damage.

Try setting the triggers and cocking the locks. If they **** normally and stay cocked until you trip the back trigger then this is the case.

If this is the case you must not try to **** the lock without the triggers set and you must ensure you don't trip them in half **** or damage to the the lock or triggers may result. As stated, not a big deal provided the shooter is aware of this sequence.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[CrossXstix]

You could be putting it back together way to tight and something is binding up. Try backing off on the screws some, try it, if not working, back out some more.

X
David

 

[Thumb]

J.D., I sort of understand what you are saying but have no idea on how to go about setting the triggers first and then the lock. How do you set the triggers without the lock being cocked?

David, I tried that already to the point where the trigger assembly is almost falling out.

 

[robtattoo]

J.D., I sort of understand what you are saying but have no idea on how to go about setting the triggers first and then the lock. How do you set the triggers without the lock being cocked?

David, I tried that already to the point where the trigger assembly is almost falling out.

Go to half-****, pull the rear trigger, **** the hammer all the way back.
That'll set the trigger before cocking.
I have a rifle like this & if I don't set the trigger before cocking, the hammer will return to the half-**** notch.
Once the rear trigger is set, the hammer will remain solidly in the full-**** position.

 

[jdkerstetter]

You "set" the trigger without the lock cocked or at half **** just like you do with it fully cocked.

With the hammer at "rest", in the fired position, down on the nipple, you simply pull the back trigger until it locks....you should feel it engage the front trigger and there is usually an audible "click".

Then **** the hammer and see if it works normally. If it does, place an unfired cap or a piece of heavy leather over the nipple and fire the gun by pulling the front trigger.

If the lock functions properly doing it like this then you have verified that your triggers are set up so that they must be set "before" cocking the lock.

As stated, the gun could have been built this way or the triggers may need adjustment. Either way it can be used this way as long as the shooter is aware that he/she must set the triggers before cocking the lock.

On an aside, I have a professionally built chunk gun built intentionally with this arrangement. Though I would likely have built it differently.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Thumb]

Got it! The 32 works as you described by setting the rear trigger first then cocking the lock.

The 45 still has a problem so I'll take it apart again and see if I can see something binding or something. Like I said before, with the triggers and hammer out of the gun, they seem to work fine, it's just when I put everything back in there seems to be something hanging up.

Thanks for the quick lesson on those trigger sets.

 

[rafterob]

First, take the locks and triggers out of the guns. Now observe the lock closely as you **** it, paying attention to the sear nose setting in to the tumbler notches. Two things can possibly break there, the nose of the sear or the lip of the tumbler notch. Look closely and make sure those two components are not broken. If the lock functions as it should out of the gun then move on to the triggers. Again, observe the trigger assembly closely as you set the rear trigger. You should see the front trigger bar set into a notch on the rear trigger bar. Now pull the front trigger and it should release the spring loaded rear trigger bar. There is one screw that adjusts the contact between those two trigger bars. Typically another screw adjusts the tension on the spring. If the triggers also work out side of the gun then you have an issue with the relationship between the lock and triggers inside the gun. First install the triggers and then try to install the lock, you may discover the sear bar is hitting against the trigger bar(s) and interfering with the lock's installation. This may occur with any variation of the lock's cocked position, so try all settings.If you discover this to be the case there are two fixes. One is to file the offending trigger bars down so they no longer interfere with the sear bar and the other is to shim the trigger assembly so it does not set as deep into the stock. This is a common problem with some CVA rifles,especially the Mountain rifle.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Glad it worked for one.

In either case, when aranged this way the locks and triggers will work fine out of the gun. The problem arises when they are installed and the spring pressure on the rear trigger pushes it up enough to bear on the sear and will not allow the lock to **** fully.

Different triggers have different adjustments. I only see one external screw on the triggers in the picture above...the one between the triggers. This screw adjust the amount of engagement between the front and rear triggers and should have no bearing on your problem.

If there is no external screw behing the back trigger then its spring tension is adjusted by removing the triggers from the gun and either backing off or tightening the screw holding the spring.

If all else checks out you can try backing this screw off a bit and see if it allows the lock to function properly.

Good luck and Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Thumb]

I think I need to understand the names of the parts but I understand what you are saying to check out. From what I've seen before when I had everything out there seems to be no broken parts and everything seems to engage in the lock and also the triggers seem to work correctly. I'll have to play around with this for awhile later today but I'll be back and let you know what I find.

Thanks for all the help, it's much appreciated.

 

[jdkerstetter]

These diagrams may help:

Lock parts: http://www.lr-rpl.com/index.php?op...:parts-diagram&catid=41:information&Itemid=68

Trigger parts: http://www.lr-rpl.com/index.php?op...-parts-diagram&catid=41:information&Itemid=68

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Little Wattsy]

You could be putting it back together way to tight and something is binding up. Try backing off on the screws some, try it, if not working, back out some more.

X
David

Have had this problem personally.. :wink:

 

[George T.]

Very nice wood on that rifle! Geo. T.

 

[crockett]

Let's keep this thing as simple as possible. If a simple solution doesn't work we can then get into all the detail stuff.
1. What you have is probably okay and just needs a tiny tweaking.
2. Tale out the lock. You want to establish what is the problem, the lock or the trigger. With the lock out of the gun pull back the hammer/**** to test the half notch and full notch and push up on the sear bar to see how hard it is to fire and if the hammer drops all the way down. If there is a problem here- tell us what is happening.
3. If the lock is okay you now have to consider the trigger. It may be that the triggers are simply inlet too far into the wood. If "backing out the screws" helps- you very likely have a trigger inlet too far into the stock and the back arm/tab on the trigger is constantly pushing against the sear and preventing the sear's nose from contacting the tumbler's notches.
So...take out the trigger and put some shims under the mortise- maybe 1/16" and put the trigger back in and try it. If you are still having a problem then you need to look at the settings on the trigger itself, but....at least you have now isolated where to look.
Test this out and tell us what's happening.

 

[Thumb]

OK, got a little time to play around with the 45 that was giving me the problem and tested out everything again out of the gun and all works well. I put everything back in and loosely tightened everything up and was able to set and then fire but the front trigger was very very sensitive almost to the point of just touching it.

So I think the main problem is getting the trigger assembly in correctly and using shims plus adjusting the screw so the trigger is not so sensitive. I think I'm getting close to having a working rifle!

I'll let you all know when I get things squared away or if I don't I'll have more questions.

Thanks guys!

 

[Zonie]

The force needed to make the front trigger release the 'set' rear trigger is not adjustable but the distance the front trigger needs to move before it releases the rear trigger is.

There is a screw located between the triggers.
That screw adjusts the amount of engagement the front triggers catch has with the rear triggers latch.

By unscrewing it several turns you should notice that the front trigger must be moved more to release the rear trigger.

If unscrewing that screw has no effect on the front triggers movement, the front triggers engagement with the rear trigger is at the max.

The only thing to do in this case is to not use the rear trigger in the 'set' position, or, learn to live with the fast release of the set trigger.

 

[necchi]

Here's a topic from awhile back with more explanation and some photo's that might help; http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...268832/post/1140654/hl//fromsearch/1/#1140654
it links to the middle of the thread, be sure to scroll around for the photo's, :wink:

 

[crockett]

Yeah, the shims come into play if the hammer isn't going into half and full **** but if the let off is too light you normally play around with the adjustment screw on the trigger assembly.
This thing about not over tightening the trigger assembly into the mortise. That really shouldn't be a problem as long as the trigger assembly hasn't been inlet too far and you don't want the trigger assembly loose. With the trigger set and at a hair break, it seems to me a loose trigger assembly could be dangerous.