Trigger Install

[Harddog]

Not quite Fitter. Harddog is repeating a mantra he read in a book. I was giving a set of general rules for designing a good trigger. They overlap, but I can use his mantra to build a bad trigger: that is my whole point.

Well,

There you go! You made a serious faux pas for message boards. You assume you have some knowledge about my abilties, knowledge and background just by reading a couple of messages and in actuality you don't. Not by a long shot.

I was definately not repeating a mantra based on something that I read in a book. I have not even read any of the books, but do answer messages from confused guys asking questions on various message boards about material in "those" books. I believe I was scratch building muzzleloaaders before any of the building books were even published, although Buchle's book was published early on.

BTW, there is no way that you can install a simple trigger based on my original message and end up with a "bad" trigger. Only by changing the content of what I stated, adding extraneous elements or projecting your own misunderstanding of what I originally said into the mix will you end up with a bad trigger installation.

You have also suggested that I can not read, have a low ability for comprehension of the written word and off handedly denigrated my math abilities. In a round about way you have also questioned my knowledge of muzzleloader building. Shame, Shame, not something that is accepted behavior on message boards. (Please see my last message for a little about my background.)

While I don't claim to be the best muzzleloader builder there ever was, I have been scratch building muzzleloaders since the early 1960's. Didn't like and sent back a kit I ordered from Dixie Gun Works back in 1959 or 1960 and have scratch built ever since. Up until I sufferred a rotator cuff injury in my shoulder 4-5 years ago I averaged 6-7 guns per year. (You do the math) While I am not going to send you a gun of my make with a properly installed simple trigger for you to try, if you actually question my abilities as a builder I think I can scrounge up a few pictures of past projects although I never really saw the need to photograph most of my work. At the moment I have four build projects on my bench, but I am moving slow because of my shoulder problems.

My actual knowledge about the proper way to install a simple trigger for optimal efficiency comes from figuring it out for myself early on and refining it over the years.

Remember, someone disagreeing with you on a message board does not mean they are arguing, it just means they are stating a different point of view. If there were no differing points of view on a subject like this then each question would only require one answer. Never any need to denigrate, belittle or make wrong assumptions about another responder.

Randy Hedden

 

[Zonie]

Well, I know one thing after all of this.
I'm tired of hearing about triggers.

Hopefully, we can move along to a less debatable subject, like is leather or lead the best thing to use for holding a flint in a cock? :rotf:

Zonie

 

[pipascus]

Thanks for the drawing! That should help! And thanks for the other responses too.

Fellows, can we keep from arguing? It kinda screws up the whole purpose for this post.

I don't want to call the Chambers too much 'cause they have a business to run and I'm probably asking silly questions.

 

[fitter]

Randy, I agree with you.Trigger is trying to start a commotion it seems. I do my triggers the same way you and Mr. Brooks do. I've been playing with this for 35+ years myself. From what I get,he is talking about the length of the trigger itself. The slot is just a slot that keeps it from wearing out the wood around it,and somthing for the tang bolt to go through to secure the breech. The bow of the triggerguard dictates the length of the trigger itself according to the style of rifle you are building. Perhaps if trigger picks up an old dynamics text he could figure it out. FITTER By the way El Cassador, hang in there You'll be able to make it work. Don't give up.

 

[patch knife]

Thanks for the drawing! That should help! And thanks for the other responses too.

Fellows, can we keep from arguing? It kinda screws up the whole purpose for this post.

I don't want to call the Chambers too much 'cause they have a business to run and I'm probably asking silly questions.

You can e-mail them ,too . I don't think they mind providing tech support for thier customers , as long as you do your part and get at least one book on gun building . I have two books , Recreating the American Longrifle , and The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle . Neither one goes into enough detail (for me , anyway) on installing a pinned trigger .

 

[DrTimboone]

Harddog, assuming the pivot is higher than the sear where it contacts the trigger bar.. and even higher than the sear pivot.... what are the advantages and disavantages of a more verticle line on the trigger bar than in StaticXDoods drawing..as above???

 

[Harddog]

Harddog, assuming the pivot is higher than the sear where it contacts the trigger bar.. and even higher than the sear pivot.... what are the advantages and disavantages of a more verticle line on the trigger bar than in StaticXDoods drawing..as above???

Doc,

I don't believe you would gain a thing by mounting a trigger like in your drawing, but it is a moot point anyway. Installing one like StaticXDoods drawing above, with the angles he shows you can, if you are not careful, end up with a trigger pull that is in a low number of ounces and actually unsafe becasue it is to light of a pull.

Considering the location of the tumbler, sear and trigger and their geometric relationships, I don't believe you would want to mount a trigger like your drawing shows.

In actuallity Trigger was correct in saying something to the effect that the best trigger pull would be if the force applied to the trigger would be perpendicular to the line drawn between the pivot point of the sear and the sear bar. I don't disagree with this, just the location of the trigger.

If you could set up a trigger so that the force applied to the sear were at a right angle to that line and gave you a good amount of leverage it would be the most efficient trigger. Using your drawing. you are getting farther away form that hypothetical perpendicular than with StaticXDoods drawing.

Using a conventional trigger arrangement, about the closest you can get to that perpendicular relationship is as StaticXDoods drawing.

There is a trigger arrangement that was seen on a few rifles years ago that came close to the perpendicular. You may still see one of these around today, but they are rather touchy, you don't get a real feel for when the sear is going to trip and you usually have to put some kind of external thumb hook on the wrist of the rifle to be able to use it. This type of trigger arrangement is called an Iroquois trigger and is actually not a trigger at all in conventional terms. A bar with a cross bar, think of a "T" is mounted, usually a riveted deal, to the trigger guard with the top piece of the "T" up inside the rifle to trip the sear. The actual firing of the rifle is done just by squeezing the trigger guard which is not connected at the back, but just kind of hangs out in the air.

Two of the best rifle shooters I ever knew used an Iroquois trigger, but they both had a rather ugly metal thumb hook screwed into the wrist of their rifles in order to get the leverage to use this type of trigger. Of course both of these guys were excellent shooters when using a rifle with a conventional trigger so maybe it wasn't the Iroquois trigger at all.

Installing simple triggers, especially for new builders, is a try, try and try again process to acheive the trigger pull that you desire. What has been a real boon for builders today is the newer locks that have a sear bar that returns to the same location whether it is uncocked, in halfcock or fullcock. That way you can mount the trigger so that the trigger bar is quite close to the sear bar when the lock is cocked, but doesn't interfer when actually cocking the rifle. Years ago I used to rework tumblers on my locks to get them to have the sear return to the same or near same, location for optimal trigger efficiency.

Randy Hedden

 

[WRussell]

I think this question has already been answered (this has been a busy thread) but just to clarify (I hope):

Is it a good idea to get the trigger pivot point at the same height as the sear pivot point, so the motion of the contact point of the trigger against the sear bar does not cause sliding - and sliding friction?

I wish it were easier to get good drawings posted. (I never saw the first one - it seems to have disappeared.) To me "as high as possible" brings to mind a wheellock type, with the pivot point above the lockplate, so the motion of the trigger is horizontal, pushing the sear bar back - since it's a horizontally acting sear in that case. Clearly, we're talking flintlocks here, so "as high as possible" is maybe "as close to the height of the sear pivot as possible"??

 

[Flintandsteel]

OK Randy,

I agree with you, like everyone else has said, that's the way the master's did it. AND it works for me.

I am not a mathematician, but I know what works, like you said.

I'm going to try to attach a photo of the diagram from Buchelle's book. It pretty well explains it all.

I hope this un-ruffles some feathers, and points everyone in the right direction.

The obvious reason for pinning the trigger high is to get that angle from the sear, through the pivot to give that light trigger pull.