triple 7 in rifled musket

[jacko]

Hello all,
I was wondering about using Hogdon's 777 bp substitute in my .451 Parker-Hale Volunteer rifle. Has anyone done this sort of thing and were there any ignition issues? I've read that 777 is designed to ignite with 209 primers only but I'd be surprised if a top-hat musket cap failed to light it up. Any thoughts?

 

[mb3]

I use 777 in my CS Richmond all of the time. The RWS four winged caps work everytime.

 

[necchi]

I use T7 and have reliable ignition with #11 RWS or CCI mag caps.
A Musket cap will set the stuff off with out a doubt, if the channel is clean an dry.

The stuff is hot, drop your charge 15%

 

[rduncan]

It'll work but bear in mind that the "synthetic" powder tends to be more corrosive than black powder. It has higher ignition temperature that apparently disqualifies it as an explosive so you can buy the stuff over the counter at WalMart.

Inlines with 209 caps shoot a lot of fire into the breech which is why you can get by with synthetics. I've owned one...kicked like a mule and didn't shoot any better than my .50 flinter.

My two-bits: ffg is more reliable and who doesn't love the smell of black powder in the morning...

 

[necchi]

It'll work but bear in mind that the "synthetic" powder tends to be more corrosive than black powder. ...

Myth. It cleans just fine,,,

 

[Jason Lewis]

your volunteer is a match rifle. it will shoot far better with either swiss 2F or 1 1/2F. if you don't have a platinum lined nipple, get one or your steel nipples WILL burn out in less than 20 shots which will screw your 1.5" group to the size of a basket ball.

T7 is a good powder but it will not give consistant SD of MV. it was designed to shoot deer from inlines with "light" weight bullets not push 500+ grn bullets from target rifles.

it will also clean fine if you don't let the gun sit for days after the range time. just advice from a long range competition shooter.

 

[jacko]

I understand the appeal of real black, but I live in a Pacific coastal town in British Columbia Canada and all I seem to be able to aquire here is Pyrodex or Triple 7. Here's another question; If, as suggested, I reduce the T-7 charge by 15% will the resulting internal pressure be roughly equal to my regular 100% Pyrodex load?

 

[mb3]

I understand the appeal of real black, but I live in a Pacific coastal town in British Columbia Canada and all I seem to be able to aquire here is Pyrodex or Triple 7. Here's another question; If, as suggested, I reduce the T-7 charge by 15% will the resulting internal pressure be roughly equal to my regular 100% Pyrodex load?

I am not sure. The reference to reducing the 777 load is in comparison to BP. 777 is supposed to be 15 to 20% hotter than BP. I actually like 777 and have shot it in my percusion revolvers, as well as my percusion rifles and muskets, with good results. I have been told it will not work in a flintlock without doing a 777/BP mix. Dont think I am going to try that. For my flintlock I will stick to BP. But 777 works well for everything else.

 

[Jason Lewis]

all of the synthetics are compared to GOEX as the benchmark.

 

[Jason Lewis]

I understand the appeal of real black, but I live in a Pacific coastal town in British Columbia Canada and all I seem to be able to aquire here is Pyrodex or Triple 7. Here's another question; If, as suggested, I reduce the T-7 charge by 15% will the resulting internal pressure be roughly equal to my regular 100% Pyrodex load?

i'm sorry that it's tough for you to get BP where you live, i'm sure some of the guys on the forum can help you with that if you want it.

in your case with the volunteer, you need to stop thinking of it as a rifle musket, it's a military style target rifle. if you aren't getting at least a 1.5" group at 100yrds you are doing something wrong. which is why the swiss will serve you better than T7.

on a side note, what bullet are you planning on using?

just trying to help you get the best out of your rifle.

 

[jacko]

Medic,
Actually,I am aware of the Volunteer's target lineage. I sought one out because of its accuracy potential. The seller thought it was a Whitworth. I was delighted to discover its true identity and its 100% "built in Birmingham". The Volunteer has Alexander Henry rifling which shoots conicals and collects less shmutz than the Whitworth. In the ensuing 18 months my groups have gone from 12" at 50 yards (first try with battle sights) to 2" at 100 yards with peep rear and aperture front. I'm using a .451 Lyman bullet mould #451114 that throws a nominal 450 grain grease grooved conical.
My eyes aren't as sharp as they once were but I'm enjoying the process.

 

[Shine]

Medic what is your recipe for 1.5 at 100. :grin:

 

[Jason Lewis]

Medic,
Actually,I am aware of the Volunteer's target lineage. I sought one out because of its accuracy potential. The seller thought it was a Whitworth. I was delighted to discover its true identity and its 100% "built in Birmingham". The Volunteer has Alexander Henry rifling which shoots conicals and collects less shmutz than the Whitworth. In the ensuing 18 months my groups have gone from 12" at 50 yards (first try with battle sights) to 2" at 100 yards with peep rear and aperture front. I'm using a .451 Lyman bullet mould #451114 that throws a nominal 450 grain grease grooved conical.
My eyes aren't as sharp as they once were but I'm enjoying the process.

the lyman is a good bullet for the volunteer, have you tried shooting it fouled or are you wiping between shots? in some peoples experience the henry rifling shoots better dirty. what are you using for a load?

 

[Jason Lewis]

shine,

from the whitworth

.442" paper patched 40-1 alloy 530grn bullet
3/8" heavy felt wad, unlubricated
90 grns swiss 1 1/2F

inbetween shot cleaning.

1 cleaning patch damp with water, clean to the breech.

2 dry cleaning patches 5 strokes each all the way from the breech to the muzzle.

sights are a holbrook rear aperture sight graduated in degrees and minutes, baldwin front aperture sight. and a platinum lined nipple.

 

[William O.]

While I like T-7 you may get better accuracy using traditional BP and a cupped base conical such as the minnie design. This is because all BP substitutes have a burn rate more like smokeless powder and don't give that initial "slap" like real BP does when it ignites and expands the skirts of the minnie. If using a flat based conical then I've always observed better accuracy with the addition of a lubed fiber wad.

 

[jacko]

When I first got this rifle I did a lot of research on the various online forums (long range muzzleloader/research press in particular) and was perplexed by the number of different approaches taken to load my type of rifle. So I tried most of them; lubed wad, felt wad , card wad, swab after each shot, powder-wad-swab-bullet....ad infinitum. I found, after a year of testing different methods, that I consistantly shot the best targets with the simplest drill. I use a homemade lube of 50% beeswax, 40% crisco, and 10% canola oil (I add a shot of Ballistol to the mix as well). I don't use a wad at all and I don't do any cleaning during the shooting session. I fire 1 fouling shot and then proceed to shoot a string of 5 to 8 targets. Invariably, the first target is pretty loose then they get progressively better as I settle down into the "Zen" of the thing. I get more focused, my breathing slows down, trigger pull is less hurried and I start to lose all that day-to-day anxiety. That's when the best groups occur.

 

[jacko]

medic,
I forgot. You asked about the load. I use 70 grains Pyrodex RS

 

[Shine]

I have a P.H. volunteer you have a recipe for that one. Ill swap my mince meat cookie recipe :grin:

 

[rduncan]

[/quote]
Myth. It cleans just fine,,,[/quote]
I believe that we both agree that thorough cleaning is essential regardless of what you use.

But my point was that the residue from synthetic powders (which are chemical compounds) contain more corrosive salts than black powder. I've used T7, Pyrodex, and American Pioneer and the advantage of less fouling is offset by effect. BP seems to work better (for me).

I understand the Canadian gentleman's dilemma and his best bet is to experiment with different brands to learn which works best in his rifle.

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

As medic302 mentioned; “if you don't have a platinum lined nipple, get one or your steel nipples WILL burn out in less than 20 shots”

You didn’t address this issue. Are you using a platinum lined nipple? Or how often are you changing the nipples if you are not? In my brief experience with these rifles this issue had a critical effect on accuracy.