triple 7
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I can't say anything about triple 7 because I havent used it.
I can say I have had very dependable shooting in my precussion guns using Pyro RS and P. I also bought a pound of Pyro Select because they were out of RS at the store I go to. As the Select costs more than the RS and the information talked like it was a higher grade of powder than the RS I had great hopes for it.
As it turned out, it was inconsistant and several of my precussion guns shot better with either the RS or the P.
As REAL blackpowder is not easy to come by in 1 pound cans where I live, I save it for my Flintlocks. Because of this, I haven't set down at the bench and actually compared Pyro RS and FFg or Pyro P and FFFg.
Sounds like a good excuse to go to the range and burn some powder! ::
I can say I have had very dependable shooting in my precussion guns using Pyro RS and P. I also bought a pound of Pyro Select because they were out of RS at the store I go to. As the Select costs more than the RS and the information talked like it was a higher grade of powder than the RS I had great hopes for it.
As it turned out, it was inconsistant and several of my precussion guns shot better with either the RS or the P.
As REAL blackpowder is not easy to come by in 1 pound cans where I live, I save it for my Flintlocks. Because of this, I haven't set down at the bench and actually compared Pyro RS and FFg or Pyro P and FFFg.
Sounds like a good excuse to go to the range and burn some powder! ::
I had the same experience when I used Pyrodex a lot...tried a couple of Lbs of Select, but frankly didn't see what the big deal was and thought I had a couple of slow ignitions, etc...went back to RS which I always found to be available, inexpensive, reliable, and accurate.
Of course, I then discovered these things called Flintlocks and now have pretty Red & Black cans stacked up around here too...using leftover Pyrodex-RS in my .12ga SxS percussion
Of course, I then discovered these things called Flintlocks and now have pretty Red & Black cans stacked up around here too...using leftover Pyrodex-RS in my .12ga SxS percussion
Guest
I never could get along with Pyrodex but that could be because I didn't want to. I went thru 3 lbs., one of P and one of RS and one of CTG and just never did like it. Not saying it isn't good, I just didn't like it. I'd like to think I gave it a fair try but that was a long time ago....anyway, I never did use anymore.
Triple 7....I like it, a lot better than GOEX Clear Shot. I tried a few loads first in my two Sharps and it seemed pretty clear it gave higher velocities. Accuracy was as good or better than the GOEX Ctg. I'd been using for a number of years and obviously you don't have the fouling to contend with. It dfinitely gave better accuracy in my 40-70. I ran a few rounds across my chrono and sure enough it ran faster but I don't recall how much and don't have access to my records just now. I wanted to try it in one of my double rifles because it is near impossible to achieve the velocity necessary for them to regulate with our other black powders unless you duplex. I've never tried it in any of my muzzleloaders because I'm happy with them the way they are.
All in all I'd give Triple 7 high marks. If I were to use a substitute this is the one. It looks like real black powder. I'm also very high on regular old GOEX so my thoughts are that as long as it is available I'll probably not be using anything else. I do want to try some Swiss Black in my cartridge guns but haven't located any yet.
Vic
Triple 7....I like it, a lot better than GOEX Clear Shot. I tried a few loads first in my two Sharps and it seemed pretty clear it gave higher velocities. Accuracy was as good or better than the GOEX Ctg. I'd been using for a number of years and obviously you don't have the fouling to contend with. It dfinitely gave better accuracy in my 40-70. I ran a few rounds across my chrono and sure enough it ran faster but I don't recall how much and don't have access to my records just now. I wanted to try it in one of my double rifles because it is near impossible to achieve the velocity necessary for them to regulate with our other black powders unless you duplex. I've never tried it in any of my muzzleloaders because I'm happy with them the way they are.
All in all I'd give Triple 7 high marks. If I were to use a substitute this is the one. It looks like real black powder. I'm also very high on regular old GOEX so my thoughts are that as long as it is available I'll probably not be using anything else. I do want to try some Swiss Black in my cartridge guns but haven't located any yet.
Vic
Thanks, I just finished up the last can of FF goex, I dont know if it was a bad batch or what, my groups were great till this last 2 cans, they were all bought together. Since I need to buy something, was wondering what is the most accurate for 54 cal GPR, think I might try FFFG goex, see what happens. Seems like that should be known, In cartridge cases for rifles and handgun reloading, the reloading manuals have the best loads and powders for each caliber. Maybe no one did that much testing with BP guns ?, after all these years seems we should know by now.LOL
I know there are variables like patch, ball size and all guns are different, but so are the others, variables like primers, bullets, lead, FMJ, boat tails, etc.
I know there are variables like patch, ball size and all guns are different, but so are the others, variables like primers, bullets, lead, FMJ, boat tails, etc.
lonewolf5347
40 Cal.
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Harpman I get my best group from 3f goex 80 grains in my GPR 50 cal 1 in 32 twist barrel also using a real 320 grain conical @ a wonder wad,at 50 yards I can keep them in a 2 inch group.
Triple 777 I have tried in my thunderhawk 54 cal. inline ,powder charge has to be reduce by 15 percent compared to BP or pyrodex . I find that 75 grains of triple 777 has a lot of recoil compared to 110 grains of pyrodex select,clean up is a snap when using the triple 777 powder.
Triple 777 I have tried in my thunderhawk 54 cal. inline ,powder charge has to be reduce by 15 percent compared to BP or pyrodex . I find that 75 grains of triple 777 has a lot of recoil compared to 110 grains of pyrodex select,clean up is a snap when using the triple 777 powder.
Here I get to show my ignorance. I'm getting so good at doing that that I'm thinking of becoming a politician and running for office.
Black Powder is an "explosive" because it's burning rate is fairly high and it burns at a fixed speed. This speed is true whether it is on your workbench or in a gun breach. This makes it rather predictable. The effects of pressure is only to raise the temperature in the chamber which does not increase the powders burning rate, just the completness of the burn.
Smokeless powder on the other hand is a "combustable" because its burning rate is very slow on the bench and it only speeds up if the pressure rises. In fact its burning rate speeds up a great deal with just a small increase in pressure. With a large increase in pressure its burning rate becomes truly astronomical.
It is this direct rate/pressure relationship which makes it less tolerant of small increases in the amount of powder used in a firearm.
Having said that, here comes my ignorance. Does anyone know if 777 is pressure sensitive like smokeless powder?
Is it's burning rate fairly fixed so the danger of overloads are about the same as Black Powder?
Is the burning rate fairly fixed up to a certain pressure and is there the possibility of a rate speed increase above that pressure?
Just wondering.
Black Powder is an "explosive" because it's burning rate is fairly high and it burns at a fixed speed. This speed is true whether it is on your workbench or in a gun breach. This makes it rather predictable. The effects of pressure is only to raise the temperature in the chamber which does not increase the powders burning rate, just the completness of the burn.
Smokeless powder on the other hand is a "combustable" because its burning rate is very slow on the bench and it only speeds up if the pressure rises. In fact its burning rate speeds up a great deal with just a small increase in pressure. With a large increase in pressure its burning rate becomes truly astronomical.
It is this direct rate/pressure relationship which makes it less tolerant of small increases in the amount of powder used in a firearm.
Having said that, here comes my ignorance. Does anyone know if 777 is pressure sensitive like smokeless powder?
Is it's burning rate fairly fixed so the danger of overloads are about the same as Black Powder?
Is the burning rate fairly fixed up to a certain pressure and is there the possibility of a rate speed increase above that pressure?
Just wondering.
Just a quick note on Black Powder..... Elevation, humidity, and wind deflection probable plays the biggest roll in how real Black Powder such as Goex performs. I've shot Goex from sea level to 5000 ft. above sea level, in high humidity, and low, (there's nothing you can do about the wind except "dope it") and I have found that the higher and dryer the elevation, the better Black Powder performs... I'm just glad we have so many choices these days. Provided Goex continues to be made I'll probably never switch to anything eles as this is the powder I know and it's characteristics. Keep experimenting with those powders,,, that's what this game is all about... 
sabotloader
36 Cal.
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Harpman, In taking a big risk here because this forum appears to lean to the real "traditionalist" side, which I think would be fun, I do use T7 and i really like it. I use it in my sidelocks, 3 ea. 1 in 48 1 ea 1/28, and in my inlines. I can not tell you how it would worked with round balls though as have never shot any. The shooting i do it performs great, gives very good accuracy and certainly is a hot powder. One of the best things about it is its clean up properties. I was reading a post on here just a second ago about the differences a few feet of velocity will make in your accuracy from load to load. I have not chronoed any of my shots yet, chrono is on the way, but I think it is pretty consisitent as black powder is suppose to be. I hope you get a chance to try a bit and see how it does perform for you. I remember a time back when a lot of people were raving the claims that the Swiss BP was the best because of capabilities, well I think that is where we are with T7 as a substitute.
Really hope i have not offended any one.
Really hope i have not offended any one.
It would almost seem that the end result of having the Subs.available in all aeeas of the Country,is the beginning of the end for Real B.P.The continuall cost of storage and Haz-Mat fees are increaseing the cost of obtaining Real B.P. to the point that purchaseing it in small amounts localely is impossible.I.ve had to shoot Pyrodex more and more as the supplly of Real B.P. dwindles.I would hope that I'm wrong in this idea,but don't think so. :: /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Guest
It's a real shame black powder is getting harder to buy in small lots. That's why I save up a bit and by a case at a time. It's seems to be a real bite in the wallet at first, but consider I can (or could) get Elephant for about $8.70 a pound it's worth the trouble in the long haul.
You are allowed to keep a max of 50 lbs for personal use and I have about 40 lbs now so I can't handle another case for a while.
If I had to use fake powder I'd go with T-7. I realize many people can't safely, or at least don't feel safe storing a lot of powder.
According to my chorno results, volume to volume, T-7 gives higher velocity than Pyro-poop OR black powder with the exception of Swiss.
Swiss and T-7 are about equal in the velocity department v to v charges, not by weight.
You are allowed to keep a max of 50 lbs for personal use and I have about 40 lbs now so I can't handle another case for a while.
If I had to use fake powder I'd go with T-7. I realize many people can't safely, or at least don't feel safe storing a lot of powder.
According to my chorno results, volume to volume, T-7 gives higher velocity than Pyro-poop OR black powder with the exception of Swiss.
Swiss and T-7 are about equal in the velocity department v to v charges, not by weight.
Guest
Locally, BP (GOEX) is $29.95 lb. Pyrodex is $32.95lb.
: Next Province over, Alberta, BP is $17.95 and Pyrodex is $29.95. go figure! I have 5lbs. of BlackMag3 left that I picked up for $10.00 per pound, but use it only in the 50-70 and .44-77 Model71 Mauser. The BM3 is 200fps faster than Pyrodex or GOEX 2F in both the Mauser and Sharps with 540gr.bullets and 450gr. respectively.
Daryl
: Next Province over, Alberta, BP is $17.95 and Pyrodex is $29.95. go figure! I have 5lbs. of BlackMag3 left that I picked up for $10.00 per pound, but use it only in the 50-70 and .44-77 Model71 Mauser. The BM3 is 200fps faster than Pyrodex or GOEX 2F in both the Mauser and Sharps with 540gr.bullets and 450gr. respectively.
Daryl
Will Triple Se7en shoot in your Great Plains Rifle... yes it will. You will have to try it to see whether it shoots good or not. I have seven rifles. Two of them will not group shooting Triple Se7en. Why? I have no idea. I have tried every load I can think of. I have used wonderwads, bore buttons, corn meal, without, and still can not figure out why the two rifles hate 777. Yet I have a CVA Mountain Stalker in .54 caliber that with 85 grains of Triple Se7en FFg a moose milk patch and a wonder wad, this thing will shoot ragged holes at 25 yards and still hold tight groups with round ball out to 70 yards.
The nice thing about T-7 is clean up. With out a doubt it is easy to clean. It is easy to swab also. If cleaning the rifle with Pyrodex is not a big thing to you, then there really is no advantage in T-7.
Remember when using T-7 cut your powder charge 15% from what you were using Pyrodex or Black Powder.
The nice thing about T-7 is clean up. With out a doubt it is easy to clean. It is easy to swab also. If cleaning the rifle with Pyrodex is not a big thing to you, then there really is no advantage in T-7.
Remember when using T-7 cut your powder charge 15% from what you were using Pyrodex or Black Powder.
Herb
54 Cal.
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Chris Hodgdon sent me some Triple 7 in 2F and 3F to test in May, 2002. I used the loading data in their publication for a .54 cal roundball. It showed a maximum charge of 120 grains giving 1943 fps in an inline. I used it in a Christian Hawken copy I made (the Kentucky Rifle, p.44). 42" Green Mtn barrel, Siler Caplock, CCI 11 caps, .530 Hornady RB, pillow ticking patch and my lube, which is half Murphy's Oil Soap and half 99% isopropyl alcohol (or 91%now). My loads started at 40 grains and went up to 120 with 2F. I learned this: there were hangfires until I switched from a standard nipple to a Hot Shot nipple, No. 7075 Thompson Center. (Or Track of Wolf's Uncle Mike Shot Shot nipple or Muzzleloader Builder Supply's Spitfire nipple). Ignition was then perfect. Patches blew until I used an over-powder patch or went to a thicker one. Hodgdon used .020 OxYoke. I used Wal Mart 10 ounce cotton (white) duck, UPC 8413221738. With my lube, I never clean between shots, or up to maybe 30 or 40 shots a session, so fouling is no problem with any powder. This combination did load a bit hard, a .520 Hornady or .526 cast would work better.
With my Oehler 35P chronograph, here are comparisons (5 shots)
40 grains Triple 7 3F, 1428 fps, 50 yard group 1.2"
60 grains Triple 7 3F, 1724 fps, patches shredded (early)
70 grains Triple 7 3F, 1897 fps, 1.1"
80 grains Triple 7 3F, 1960 fps, 2.6"
80 grains Pyrodex P ("3F") 1749 fps, 1.7"
90 grains Goex 3F, 1755 fps, 1.2"
90 grains Pyrodex RS ("2F"), 1664 fps
60 grains Triple 7 2F, 1724 fps, patches shredded (early)
80 grains Triple 7 2F, 1810 fps, 1.8"
90 grains Triple 7 2F, 1952 fps, 1.8"
100 grains Triple 7 2F, 2048 fps, 2.1"
110 grains Triple 7 2F, 2161 fps, 3.25" (poor holding)
120 grains Triple 7 2F, 2210 fps, 2.25"
120 grains Triple 7 2F, 2238 fps, 2.25"
Summary: Wonderful powders! A "hot shot" type nipple is mandatory. Heavy patches, too. If you want to equal black powder velocities, reduce the charge maybe 15 percent. If you want higher velocities, Triple 7 is faster than Swiss BP. I used 777 in a .40 and still got hangfires with a hotshot nipple. Accuracy based on single groups- this stuff will shoot cloverleafs, even at 120 grains, even if I don't. I sent all this info to Chris Hodgdon, commenting that I got 295 fps more velocity than they did (with my 14" longer barrel). Chris said something like "you don't get something for nothing" but did not say anything about a maximum charge in my rifle. This was experimental on my part, I don't advise anyone else to use this charge. 70 to 90 grains gave 3 or 4 shots in a cloverleaf, then my holding opened the groups.
With my Oehler 35P chronograph, here are comparisons (5 shots)
40 grains Triple 7 3F, 1428 fps, 50 yard group 1.2"
60 grains Triple 7 3F, 1724 fps, patches shredded (early)
70 grains Triple 7 3F, 1897 fps, 1.1"
80 grains Triple 7 3F, 1960 fps, 2.6"
80 grains Pyrodex P ("3F") 1749 fps, 1.7"
90 grains Goex 3F, 1755 fps, 1.2"
90 grains Pyrodex RS ("2F"), 1664 fps
60 grains Triple 7 2F, 1724 fps, patches shredded (early)
80 grains Triple 7 2F, 1810 fps, 1.8"
90 grains Triple 7 2F, 1952 fps, 1.8"
100 grains Triple 7 2F, 2048 fps, 2.1"
110 grains Triple 7 2F, 2161 fps, 3.25" (poor holding)
120 grains Triple 7 2F, 2210 fps, 2.25"
120 grains Triple 7 2F, 2238 fps, 2.25"
Summary: Wonderful powders! A "hot shot" type nipple is mandatory. Heavy patches, too. If you want to equal black powder velocities, reduce the charge maybe 15 percent. If you want higher velocities, Triple 7 is faster than Swiss BP. I used 777 in a .40 and still got hangfires with a hotshot nipple. Accuracy based on single groups- this stuff will shoot cloverleafs, even at 120 grains, even if I don't. I sent all this info to Chris Hodgdon, commenting that I got 295 fps more velocity than they did (with my 14" longer barrel). Chris said something like "you don't get something for nothing" but did not say anything about a maximum charge in my rifle. This was experimental on my part, I don't advise anyone else to use this charge. 70 to 90 grains gave 3 or 4 shots in a cloverleaf, then my holding opened the groups.
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