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Look at the uneven wear inside the bore.
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Trouble with sighting in Replica Arms 1841
- Thread starter jode
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Your rear sight is way Left on the barrel no wonder it shoots left. I am looking at the blade and it is way left I do not care about the dovetail position. The dovetail appears to be cockeyed making the blade left.
Move the blade right until the group centers. Do not care where the dovetail ends up.
Move the blade right until the group centers. Do not care where the dovetail ends up.
The dovetail is the slot milled into the barrel that the base of the sight slides into.
https://www.google.com/search?q=si...rums%2Findex.php%3Fshowtopic%3D175582;543;487
The blade is the part that extends back you look through.
The blade is the part that extends back you look through.
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Holy cow! Awesome. I thought that little pin piece at the very back of the sight was riveted into the barrel, but it is not. With your info above, I attempted to move it and sure enough, it popped over! Excellent. So now the question is, how to get it to stay there. It is not loose, but a slight bump will move the sight over. Can I just pop the whole sight out of the dovetail and re-bend it so that it presses down onto the barrel with more force? I can't imagine putting the work in to sight this in when a slight bump would knock it back out.
A drop of Loctite should do it. If it's pretty loose you can tap the tops of the dovetail to tighten it up.
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To me, the bore looks offcenter, and it has been crowned offcenter to make the end of the barrel look the same thickness.
I would cut off about 1/4" of the barrel and re-crown the bore evenly.
I would cut off about 1/4" of the barrel and re-crown the bore evenly.
My take, at this point is your'e dealing with several issues. The M.1841 U.S. Percussion Rifle (it's actual name, surprisingly enough) was designed as a .54 caliber, fixed sight rifle for the Regiment of Mounted Riflemen...sort of the 1830's take on European dragoons. When the Italians started making these in the late 70's they used the same bore cutters already in use for the M.1863 Remington "Zouave" rifles then being made by Zoli and Pederzoli. What this means briefly, is that they were coming out as .58 caliber guns bored with a Minie ball barrel of 3 each lands and grooves button rifled .003" deep...fine for conical bullets but a little touchy for patched round balls unless you got a tight ball/patch fit and kept the powder charge down. This was common with the Zouave then which had the same problem. Us old guys went through a few sleepless nights trying to figure it all out in the 60's and early 70's but learned to adapt. The original rifles had 7 or 8 grooves about .007" to .010" deep with a slower twist for the patched balls they were designed to use. This is also where the 1-48" twist got a bad rap back then through no fault of it's own...it was the rifling depth.
It also appears from the pictures of the muzzle that the crown is miscut and is deeper on one side than the other...it's difficult to see for sure. It also does appear you have the 3 each land and groove barrel originally installed on these replicas. The rifling can be dealt with, the muzzle may need to be recut to even it up. This can be part of the problem.
The rear sight was originally a fixed sight, adjustable only by drifting left or right, like the originals. Without a photo showing the way this replacement sight sits, there's the possibility the dovetail is not cut level which would misalign the rear sight horizontally along the barrel top. The photo taken from above the rear sight leaves the impression that the rear sight is slightly bent along it's length, though this may just be angle of perspective...in any case it needs to be checked.
These are probably the things you need to check first. These rifles were later corrected by the Italian makers and changed to .54 bore with rifling cut deeper and the twist slowed to 1-60" to work better with patched ball. You have several options. You can just tinker with it till you work out the bugs and shoot it and enjoy it. With what you've got you could modify it to resemble the thousands M.1841's converted to use standard U.S. ball ammo during the war. Basically, this was done by reboring to .58 caliber, installing the adjustable sight shown on the S&S page and modifying the front end with a new front barrel band and/or clip on holder for the sword bayonet used on the M.1855 Rifled Musket. The choice is yours and we're all here to help you get it going like it should. It's worth the effort to get it shooting accurately. Enjoy the adventure and remember to have fun! :wink: :thumbsup:
It also appears from the pictures of the muzzle that the crown is miscut and is deeper on one side than the other...it's difficult to see for sure. It also does appear you have the 3 each land and groove barrel originally installed on these replicas. The rifling can be dealt with, the muzzle may need to be recut to even it up. This can be part of the problem.
The rear sight was originally a fixed sight, adjustable only by drifting left or right, like the originals. Without a photo showing the way this replacement sight sits, there's the possibility the dovetail is not cut level which would misalign the rear sight horizontally along the barrel top. The photo taken from above the rear sight leaves the impression that the rear sight is slightly bent along it's length, though this may just be angle of perspective...in any case it needs to be checked.
These are probably the things you need to check first. These rifles were later corrected by the Italian makers and changed to .54 bore with rifling cut deeper and the twist slowed to 1-60" to work better with patched ball. You have several options. You can just tinker with it till you work out the bugs and shoot it and enjoy it. With what you've got you could modify it to resemble the thousands M.1841's converted to use standard U.S. ball ammo during the war. Basically, this was done by reboring to .58 caliber, installing the adjustable sight shown on the S&S page and modifying the front end with a new front barrel band and/or clip on holder for the sword bayonet used on the M.1855 Rifled Musket. The choice is yours and we're all here to help you get it going like it should. It's worth the effort to get it shooting accurately. Enjoy the adventure and remember to have fun! :wink: :thumbsup:
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I would get a better sight before doing so but once you get it sighted in you carefully peen the top edge of the dovetail to keep the sight in place. You can do that with a punch or the round end of a ballpeen hammer. It doesn't take much and I do stress lightly.
To bend a '41 barrel or a Zouave barrel (they are almost identical) you would just about have to drive over it with a truck. I seriously doubt that is a problem.
To mount the long range sights shown in the S&S pages you would need to take the barrel to a smith to have a special dovetail cut and a hole drilled and taped for the retaining screw. The dovetail that has been cut for that rear sight may give you some problems as it isn't the correct type and may have to be filled before a correct one is cut. Unless you are interested in making it historically correct it isn't worth the $$ outlay as you can buy sights similar to the one you have for about $12.
Before you do anything else you need to see if it will group. For that you need 4 things, an aiming point, solid unmoving front and rear sights and a bench. It doesn't matter if the group is 2' 11 3/4" off the target at 9:45, it is still a group. If you can't get a group under 5" at 50 yards, which is not very good, I would have that barrel lined or simply buy a replacement from Hoyt or Whitacer with the correct rear sight dovetail and a front sight on it. Until you can get a group there isn't much sense putting any work or money in it. All this is going on the assumption you have a well cast minie of soft lead with no voids or defects in the skirts and of a proper size for your bore.
To mount the long range sights shown in the S&S pages you would need to take the barrel to a smith to have a special dovetail cut and a hole drilled and taped for the retaining screw. The dovetail that has been cut for that rear sight may give you some problems as it isn't the correct type and may have to be filled before a correct one is cut. Unless you are interested in making it historically correct it isn't worth the $$ outlay as you can buy sights similar to the one you have for about $12.
Before you do anything else you need to see if it will group. For that you need 4 things, an aiming point, solid unmoving front and rear sights and a bench. It doesn't matter if the group is 2' 11 3/4" off the target at 9:45, it is still a group. If you can't get a group under 5" at 50 yards, which is not very good, I would have that barrel lined or simply buy a replacement from Hoyt or Whitacer with the correct rear sight dovetail and a front sight on it. Until you can get a group there isn't much sense putting any work or money in it. All this is going on the assumption you have a well cast minie of soft lead with no voids or defects in the skirts and of a proper size for your bore.
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Do what Mooman said.
robinsroost
50 Cal.
jode said:
Its certainly worth a try, otherwise you are looking at a new sight, KYPD...... Robin
I removed the sight from the dovetail. It was bent along its axis. I fixed that. Then I bent it down so that it would put more pressure on the distance-sighting-ramp-thingy so that it would hold the rear sight more in place. Then I took it back out and rough sighted it in again. I say rough because I was using a shooting stick from the standing position shooting at an unknown distance estimated at about 50 yards, but not sure. I was again using the minie balls and I cut the charge down to 50 grains.
The results were excellent. I am on the paper, and shooting good groups. At this point, I think I will need to get myself a set of glasses and get to the bench rest at the range (with known distances) to fine tune it. I still might like to replace that rear sight first though.
One the rear sight, there is a little screw that you can loosen to move a little plate with the notch in it. It has two sides. Currently, the large notch is the one on top, and therefore being used. I would have like to have turned it over so that I was using the smaller notch, but unfortunately, the screw did not respond to PB Blaster and is completely frozen. I basically stripped out the flat head part of it, so I think that sight is basically a situation where you use it or lose it. Right now, I am tempted to lose it.
The results were excellent. I am on the paper, and shooting good groups. At this point, I think I will need to get myself a set of glasses and get to the bench rest at the range (with known distances) to fine tune it. I still might like to replace that rear sight first though.
One the rear sight, there is a little screw that you can loosen to move a little plate with the notch in it. It has two sides. Currently, the large notch is the one on top, and therefore being used. I would have like to have turned it over so that I was using the smaller notch, but unfortunately, the screw did not respond to PB Blaster and is completely frozen. I basically stripped out the flat head part of it, so I think that sight is basically a situation where you use it or lose it. Right now, I am tempted to lose it.
Brokenlaig
36 Cal.
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So you've pretty well narrowed the problem down: the rear sight is damaged. You've sort-of repaired it, but honestly, at this point rather than Ozark-engineer it and maybe have it work, I'd recommend replacing it.
Is it me or is there something not Kosher about the rifling about an 1/8 inch down in the barrel?
It looks like a grey looking rubbed place that is uneven on one side in the pictures. Or it could be an optical illusion. That 3 groove rifling should be even all the way around.
Bob
It looks like a grey looking rubbed place that is uneven on one side in the pictures. Or it could be an optical illusion. That 3 groove rifling should be even all the way around.
Bob
Brokenlaig said:
I'd like to do that, but without spending much money. Seems like $10 ought to be MORE then enough for a tiny little piece of metal, but from what I've seen, people seem to be pretty proud of their rear sights. I may end up venturing into self-fabrication-land here....
How anyone can tell the muzzle conditions from the pic's shown is beyond me.
Sight is screwed as per the final from poster.
Sight is screwed as per the final from poster.
Looks like lighting to me.
If all you want is plain jane hunk of metal sight there are quite a few sights under $10. I don't know what is correct for your particular gun though.
If all you want is plain jane hunk of metal sight there are quite a few sights under $10. I don't know what is correct for your particular gun though.
jode said:From the way the light reflects off the barrel, there is no obvious bend. Take a look at these pics and let me know if you think this looks funny. Could this inconsistency inside the barrel end cause it to throw the bullet funny?
If your shooting patched balls, that muzzle could indeed cause very poor accuracy.
It has almost a razor sharp edge where the bore meets the muzzle.
This could easily cut the cloth patch when a patched ball was loaded.
A cut patch is about as useless as no patch at all and there's no telling where the ball will hit.
See if you can find a large, conical grind stone. It needs to be slightly larger than the bore in diameter although larger will also work.
They are usually made with a 1/4 inch metal shank for use in an electric drill but under no circumstances should you actually use a powered drill to do what I'm going to suggest.
Using finger pressure only, place the conical end of the grind stone into the bore and rotate it.
The idea here is to grind away that horrible sharp edge, leaving a conical entrance into the bore.
You want to let the bore guide the stone while it is working.
When a conical surface that is at least 1/32 inch is created, stop.
Now, use a piece of 220 or 350 grit black, wet/dry sandpaper and the end of your thumb, rotating back and forth to remove the roughness left by the grindstone. You want to especially remove the sharp edge that the stone left where the countersink meets the bore.
I think doing this will greatly improve the barrels accuracy both with a patched roundball and with a conical bullet.
:thumbsup: +1
