Truth about DOM tubing barrels

[George]

I guess my background doesn't carry much weight anymore...

Can't speak for anyone else, Zonie, but it does with me. Experience gets extra weight when I'm trying to make a decision.

All my experience of these barrels is of those American-made and of high quality.

For me, here's what I consider positive evidence concerning the barrels, where the rubber meets the road:

I've safely shot such a barrel extensively for 13+ years with what most people call heavier than average charges with absolutely no safety-related incidents.

I know of one other shooter who has done essentially the same. He's alive and well, still shooting it.

There are at least two gunmakers who have used these barrels in hundreds if not thousands of guns.

A barrel like mine except 15/16" instead of the 1" mine is was tested with 250 grains 3F and 6 balls with absolutely no damage.

And the actual evidence the barrels are unsafe is....?

Spence

 

[jerrywh]

I have been engaged in these type of discussions for many years. They rarely change anybody's mind. What it does prove is you can get by with a lot if you use black powder and don't make any mistakes in loading. With standard loads black powder does not produce very high pressures. BUT. Once in a while somebody screws up. That's where the difference becomes more apparent. I choose to have the edge. It never ceases to amaze me what some will risk to save $100.00.
I wonder if tubbing is used on any modern guns and if not , Why Not?
Did you know that black powder is capable of producing 100,000 psi. under certain conditions?

 

[Rolfkt]

My quandry is this. I would like to use a traditonal forged barrel on a gun, but don't know if I dare. If DOM tubing is unsafe, why isn't a traditional forged barrel unsafe?

Best regards
Rolf

 

[Flintfan69]

I wonder if tubbing is used on any modern guns and if not , Why Not?
Did you know that black powder is capable of producing 100,000 psi. under certain conditions?

No, tubing is not used on modern gun barrels, but neither is 12L14 which is used successfully for thousands of muzzleloader barrels every year. Both materials are not suitable for the pressures of some FACTORY loaded nitro ammunition.

It does not surprise me that black powder can produce 100,000 psi under certain conditions. Does it do this with 80 grains of powder and a short started ball, or even a double, or triple charge? Because if it does, it does not matter what the barrel is made of and a modern gun barrel will fail with those kind of pressures. A modern 12 gauge proof load is only about 20,000 psi, which is roughly double a heavy field load.

This discussion reminds me of the hysteria over damascus shotgun barrels that has been going on in this country (and only this country I might add) for the past 100 years. There has been a lot of testing done on damascus barrels during the past decade, and the fears that have been fed to the public by shotgun manufactures a century ago (and for some reason many people still hold on to) have been found to be completely ridiculous.

Sherman Bell, who has probably done more testing on damascus barrels than anyone in the last 100 years, gives me my favorite analogy which I will paraphrase...One mountain climber weights 250 lbs. and climbs a mountain with a rope rated at 1000 lbs. The second mountain climber weights 350 lbs and uses a rope rated at 2000 lbs. The question is, which one is safer? The answer is that they are both safe since neither rope will break.

Is a barrel that is rated at a lower maximum pressure firing a low pressure load less safe than a high pressure rated barrel firing a high pressure load? That's for each of us to decide.

Each of us much make our own decisions on what an acceptable level of safety is. If someone fears barrels made of DOM, 12L, damascus, etc... and only wants to use modern ordnance steel. Great, but those can and have failed too when abused, and are getting harder and harder for manufactures to keep up with demand, and many strictly black powder barrel manufactures don't even make them out of that grade of steel.

Any barrel can fail when improperly loaded and abused, the point is to know what you are doing and take loading and firing any gun the serious matter that it is. If someone truly has concerns about a barrel, go through a proper proofing session (which involves accurately measuring the i.d. and o.d. of the barrel in many places before and after proofing it) and have it x-rayed as well after that.

 

[shortstring]

My quandry is this. I would like to use a traditonal forged barrel on a gun, but don't know if I dare. If DOM tubing is unsafe, why isn't a traditional forged barrel unsafe?

Best regards
Rolf

I like your logic.

 

[Xtramad]

I would trust a DOM tube welded by a computer controlled welder more than I would trust a tube with a hand forged weld.

 

[matt denison]

My quandry is this. I would like to use a traditonal forged barrel on a gun, but don't know if I dare. If DOM tubing is unsafe, why isn't a traditional forged barrel unsafe?

Best regards
Rolf

Traditionaly forged barrels were made by experienced smiths, then they were proofed to strict standards. They did not all make it through the proofing session. If you want to use a traditional welded barrel go ahead but have it proofed before loading/shooting in public.

 

[jerrywh]

I guess the answer is proof with standard proof loads and don't get distracted when loading your muzzle loader. I don't have a unusual fear when it comes to damascus barrels but I will not shoot one without proofing it.
I have a suggestion. Send your tubbing made barrels to one of the guys who say they're safe and let them shoot it for a while before you try it.
Pay them for proofing the gun.

 

[Old40Rod]

Not this topic again. The real questions that should be asked are:

1. Can DOM tubing be used to forge a khukuri?

2. Is it safe to blow down a DOM barrel?

:blah:

 

[CaptainKirk]

I am not a gunsmith, and certainly don't carry the weight Zonie does WRT engineering data... (Garrett, Zonie?)
But as an outsider to this discussion, I will simply ask this question, the answer of which appears blatantly and glaringly obvious to me:
"For the cost and availability of commercially available rifle barrels, bored and rifled to your specs, and proofed before purchase...WHY ARE WE ENTERTAINING THIS DISCUSSION IN THE FIRST PLACE???!!!"

Buy a commercially available barrel.

 

[BillinOregon]

Captain: I started this thread because I was considering purchasing one of the 17th-century flintlock reproduction muskets made in India. These guns have DOM tubing barrels. I focused the question on the barrels themselves because the Indian-made guns have other issues -- oversized teak stocks, often very heavy trigger pulls -- that many object to. I know about those issues and can live with them or work around them. To me the main issue with these guns is whether the barrels are safe to shoot and hunt with. Other reasonably well-known American gun makers and suppliers have used or offered DOM barrels in the past, and apparently some still use them.
I wanted to know if these things are really time bombs or not. If I were having a gun built, or building a rifle, I would most certainly specify a barrel from Rice, Rayl, Getz, Colerain or Green Mountain.
I have yet to see a post where someone sectioned a DOM barrel, analyzed the welds, tested for strength etc. I have been assured that several of the importers of the Indian DOM barreled guns have proofed them at 150 or 200 percent with zero failures.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Other reasonably well-known American gun makers and suppliers have used or offered DOM barrels in the past, and apparently some still use them.

Another point to consider. There may be some builders who might be reasonably well-known to the general ML public for various reasons like internet websites, selling guns at low price points, etc. but they may not viewed in the same glimmering light by their peers.

In the long run (safe or not out of the equation), with the minimal cost difference between a pipe and a gun barrel, the only one I see who is coming out in the deal is the guy who puts it in the stock.

 

[Bubba45]

Seems E R A uses it on some of theirs :hmm:

"OUR STANDARD SMOOTHBORE BARRELS

Standard lengths are 24" 36" 42" and 46" available in .50 .54 .62 and .75 caliber Cloverleaf groups at thirty yards are common. They are made up from industrial grade hydraulic tubing. It's 1026 mild carbon steel much stronger than anything made in the 18th century. I have proof tested them with 250 grs. of FFFg black powder and six patched round balls. I took caliper measurements of the diameter in six locations before and after with absolutely no change. Colerain brand octagon to round smoothbore barrels are available for additional."

 

[rich pierce]

Captain: I started this thread because I was considering purchasing one of the 17th-century flintlock reproduction muskets made in India. These guns have DOM tubing barrels. I wanted to know if these things are really time bombs or not. If I were having a gun built, or building a rifle, I would most certainly specify a barrel from Rice, Rayl, Getz, Colerain or Green Mountain.
I have yet to see a post where someone sectioned a DOM barrel, analyzed the welds, tested for strength etc. I have been assured that several of the importers of the Indian DOM barreled guns have proofed them at 150 or 200 percent with zero failures.

Bill, I am not sure that asking for thoughts about DOM barrels will answer your questions adequately. "DOM barrels" as a category seems to cover a lot of ground. Seems to me that different alloys and different heat treats, different welds, thickness, and other factors could lead to wide variations in the safety of "DOM barrels".

 

[Zonie]

While your reason for starting the topic is understandable the answers you have received may or may not be applicable to DOM from India.

I have no idea about the material properties of the steel they used in their DOM barrels. They may buy their tubing from the U.S. or Korea or make their own. Who knows?
It may be high quality steel or the cheapest stuff they can make.

Knowing that many of the guns made in India do not have a touch hole, I suspect they use the cheapest material they can find.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

While your reason for starting the topic is understandable the answers you have received may or may not be applicable to DOM from India.

I have no idea about the material properties of the steel they used in their DOM barrels. They may buy their tubing from the U.S. or Korea or make their own. Who knows?
It may be high quality steel or the cheapest stuff they can make.

Knowing that many of the guns made in India do not have a touch hole, I suspect they use the cheapest material they can find.

I would think you are correct. The decorator pieces we see coming over here do not have to go thru their proof house so I would imagine that there is NO standard of conformity for the barrel material.

 

[BillinOregon]

Zonie: It would be a real service to American shooters for someone with engineering bona fides to track down the source of materials used in the Indian guns. From what I understand, there are many manufacturers there, some fairly sophisticated and others relatively crude, and they do produce a wide variety of guns from laughably lousy decorator and movie prop guns to well made and quite shootable specimens. I believe Loyalist Arms in Nova Scotia, Veteran Arms in Georgia and Middlesex Village Trading Company in New Hampshire deal primarily in the latter.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

I am curious as to what the import firearms have that is leaning you in that direction, are there no American builders producing what you want ?

 

[BillinOregon]

Apprentice: I am looking at a fishtail musket with English lock. I realize that John Buck, Leonard Day and other builders could make one of these for me, but I have a couple of other flint guns higher on my dream list that I would spend that kind of money on. I could "play" with a shooter-grade fishtail from India for about $600 and get it out of my system, so to speak.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

I see,
The only thing that I can add to this conversation is if you want it, then buy it, and enjoy it, life is short. But such imports depreciate 30% or more like a new car, there is no re-sale value for them. If you invest that money into a quality built firearm with quality parts you will have something that would typically appreciate over time. Godd luck in your decision.
Just My Thoughts.