Tulle in 1760's Virginia Valley

[MSzychulda]

Ok I have been researching the fowlers and Tulle's as can see by my previous post. The current ERA wait is 16+ months and I have began to look at other options and kits.

I was wondering if it would be too out of place for a person in the 1760's Virginia valley to own a tulle. I know several fights at Fort Necessity and such, would have put a person in touch with the French. Also the Dutch traders would have had access to them, but would they be a safe "common" choice?

I know they were shipped in huge numbers to the Canada and New France, but can't find much on further trade with the colonies. I am going a lot off of Hamiltons Book "Early Colonial Guns".

I have been researching fowlers and it seems all mention of English Fowlers were scarce and seemed to be avaliable for the wealthy and merchants for sport, where as the Tulle was a working gun. I am having a tough time making a decision as I want to be as accurate as possible and not have to stretch the limits to make something work.

I love the look of the fowler (tulle or french influenced) stocks as the english fowlers look more like rifles to me. I think that is why the Cumberland Fowler caught my eye so much.

If I go with a Tulle, I am thinking walnut stock with iron furniture and a 46-48" barrel. Any suggestions on kits? I have been looking at the Davis and Patagonia kits and have seen them both recommended on past posts, and they have more of the correct options I am looking for.

If I go with an English fowler I will probably bite the bullet and get a Chamber's Pennsylvania Fowler in walnut and brass as previously suggested. Seems like the Tulles were more common furnished in iron.

I appreciate any advice or research materials/quotes. Thanks

 

[Java Man]

Matt,

Sent you a PT.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Found this quote by Mr. Brooks on another thread that may help with your research on iron hardware on your French gun.

"Even French guns mounted in iron should be considered a more expensive gun than a brass mounted gun. In most cases they would be considered a fusil fin rather than a fusil de trait. The iron mounted guns were probably given as gifts to allied individuals as a reward for loyalty, or that sort of thing. There were far more Brass mounted French guns traded to the natives than iron."

 

[rich pierce]

You'd do well with a "Carolina Gun" or English-influenced fowler, stocked in walnut, unless portraying a native who is rading on the settlements with French instigation.

 

[Mike Brooks]

If it's the Virginia valley ca. 1760 and it's a smooth bore, more than likely it's English made. you could make a "story" for A Tulle in Virginia like most other folks do.

I have been researching fowlers and it seems all mention of English Fowlers were scarce and seemed to be avaliable for the wealthy and merchants for sport

There were all levels of quality in english fowlers, from the simple/cheap "G" to the high end fowlers. English made smooth bores were THE most common gun in the colonies at that time.

 

[MSzychulda]

Mike, do you have any pictures of the type "G" you are coming out with? I would love to see it. Thanks for the suggestions all, I definately have much more research to do before I make a decision. i may get the book on "Fowlers the first gun made in America", any others you would suggest?

I do think I will go the kit route, as I enjoy building these guns, but don't have the time of skill to do one from scratch. I do a lot of hobby metal and wood work.

Thanks

 

[Mike Brooks]

Here's some good books for your research, as well as "Fowlers the first gun made in America" which on page #31 is a picture of a variation of a type "G":
Colonial guns on the frontier
Muskets of the revolution
The last one has a picture of the Bumford gun which is a 1750's era type "G"

 

[akapennypincher]

You could be a Frenchman who live among the indians, many white did live with Indians as they had indian wives, and kids

 

[tg]

Get a copy of Bouchards "The Fusil de Tulle in New France 1691-1741, it's a cheap book with much info, he suggests that the finer guns were Brass mounted, though the brass/iron thing may have been more a geographical thing based on archeological finds.

 

[Mike Brooks]

You could be a Frenchman who live among the indians, many white did live with Indians as they had indian wives, and kids

There probably weren't many Frenchies living amongst the indians in 1760 virginia.

 

[MSzychulda]

We can trace our family back to the 1650's, with most being in the Virginia/ West Virginia Areas. My family names are Wilkinson, Howard, Haskel and Gaston, So I will probably stick with the English persona. I do have some indian in me, but not enough to play native or mixed blood. Thanks though. :thumbsup:

I have Colonial Frontier Guns by Hamilton and find it a great resource. I am no gun expert but the French type "D" and the english "G" appear very similar to me, with the main diffrence appearing in the butt of the gun. The Tulle appears to have the rounded butt. The English arm does appear heavier in the wrist.

Here is a question for you, how are the longarms with the 46-48" barrels to load and shoot? My rifle now has a 42" barrel, but I am thinking of going longer with my fowler. A 48" barrel sure would be a fun gun to have for shooting game.

 

[TANSTAAFL]

I would think it quite possible (exceptions to every rule) the French arms would have made it into the English Dominions.

Been reading of Jolliet and Marquette expedition down the Mississippi, in 1673. Marquette was amazed to see the Indians with firearms as far down as the mouth of the Arkansas River. The odd thing was, these Indians had never seen a White man, they had obtained them from other Indians in trade from other Europeans.

So, the intra Indian trade in firearms was much more extensive even the early days than I had thought.

 

[TANSTAAFL]

48" barrels to Mike is akin to canoe guns for many. :rotf:

 

[akapennypincher]

You could be a Frenchman who live among the indians, many white did live with Indians as they had indian wives, and kids

There probably weren't many Frenchies living amongst the indians in 1760 virginia.

Only need one... :bow:

 

[Mike Brooks]

I am no gun expert but the French type "D" and the english "G" appear very similar to me, with the main diffrence appearing in the butt of the gun.

That could be said about any gun....from the lock forward they are ALL the same. :winking:

The Tulle appears to have the rounded butt. The English arm does appear heavier in the wrist.

The "G" has a straight comb, and is MUCH lighter in archetecture. The breech of the barrel measures 1" apposed to the french guns 1 1/8 or better. The heigth of the wrist in the "G" is 1 1/4" at it's smallest point which is quite petite.
Long barrels are no big deal, I shoot a 48" barreled type "G" for many years, and have shoot guns with barrels out to 60" on a regular basis with no unusual problems. I'll be building a Hudson Valley Fowler for my own personal entertainment soon with a 72" barrel, and I foresee no problems with the loading or shooting of the gun.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I would think it quite possible (exceptions to every rule) the French arms would have made it into the English Dominions.

Been reading of Jolliet and Marquette expedition down the Mississippi, in 1673. Marquette was amazed to see the Indians with firearms as far down as the mouth of the Arkansas River. The odd thing was, these Indians had never seen a White man, they had obtained them from other Indians in trade from other Europeans.

So, the intra Indian trade in firearms was much more extensive even the early days than I had thought.

I have no doubt that the occasional french gun did make it into firmly english controled areas. It's the Fusil De Chasse gun in particular I have the problem with in Virginia specifically. These guns were given away as alliance guns, not sold like the Fusil De Trait. Also, there seems to be no archeological evidence of De Chasses in the south, but lots of evidence of brass mounted de Traits and Fusil finns. Of course anyone carrying a de Chasse in Virginia could fall back on the "battlefield pick up theory" as that seems to be the most popular scenario for those who have them.
It's been a long time since I read about the J&M expidition, but I do remember their reference to the Savauges having firearms...if I remember correctly weren't the equally amazed that they were english guns to boot?

 

[Mike Brooks]

You could be a Frenchman who live among the indians, many white did live with Indians as they had indian wives, and kids

There probably weren't many Frenchies living amongst the indians in 1760 virginia.

Only need one... :bow:

The trouble is that so many people use the "only need one" principle that at today's Virginia scenario reenactments the Tulle Fusil De Chasse is the most frequently seen gun, even though they were an incredibly rare gun in Virginia. :winking:

The most important thing to keep in mind is the majority of people really don't care, they just want to go out and whoop and holler and have a good time and not spend their whole weekend critiqueing each others equipment. :v
This is all far more important on internet discussion boards than it is at an encampent in the woods, where your friends care more about your character as a person than what gun you're carrying.

 

[MSzychulda]

Here is a question, how hard would it be to modify a Tulle kit to closely match a type G? Could a fellow order the proper components for the G from the rifle shop, and modify the Tulle stock? As stated before the typical kits leave quite a bit of wood on which could be used to change the form some. Just thinking out loud, Matt

 

[MSzychulda]

How about these for an english fowler?

The main problem I see with these are the stocks are maple, but the lines look good. Thoughts?

 

[Capt. Jas.]

It's all a matter of how authentic you want to go. I am sure they will suit someone's opinion of "authentic" but not mine.

The first one has I think, a hydraulic tubing barrel maybe? It is maple (nuff said), I bet the trigger guard is a stock item for the maker and it's an acorn style so that would limit your time frame. It's got what I think is an L&R Classic lock and although a few like the L&R locks, I would not have one. I cant tell what kind of butt plate is on this one but most of these types of guns seem to be made with whatever hardware is on hand at the time or with available stock parts to keep costs down. This makes it great for someone wanting a smoothbore for hunting or buckskinning but there are many better choices in my opinion for a more authentic and earlier interpretation for living history.

The second is a Caywood Wilson. You may want to do a search on this site for that gun. Authenticity was really discussed in one thread and I think it was the French and Indian War forum but not sure. I know it wont have your 46-48" barrel requirement though.

I am still working on getting you some pictures of my walnut chambers Pennsylvania Fowler.