Tumbling minié balls. Advice please

[Widows Son]

I have a Parker Hale P53 in excellent condition. I cast up bullets from a Lyman mould 577213PH. The bullets mic at .577 and they are a slip-fit in the muzzle requiring firm thumb pressure to start, but load smoothly down the bore. I weighed all the bullets to 542-543 grains and used soft lead.

I put up a target at 50 & 100 metres and loaded with 60 grains ffg. Using the 6 o’clock hold (because it’s a repeatable consistency hold) I began at 50 meters. I couldn’t hit the paper at all. After 5 rounds I tried 65 grains but no results. I couldn’t tell if I was high or low. Then I switched over to 60 grains of fffg powder and I began to hit the target more or less consistently. I tried 65 grains of fffg and things stayed about the same.

I know these are not target rifles, they are battle rifles. However I think a 4-5 inch group at 100 meters should be obtainable. My frustration is with the fact that almost every bullet keyholed the target.

This is my first experience with rifle muskets.

 

[ZUG]

I would suggest that you slug or mike the bore accurately then size your minies 0.001" less than your measurements. If your bullet is "keyholing" then I think your minies are undersized for your bore. 60 grains of either 2F or 3F should not make that much of a difference to miss a 2' x 3' paper target at 50 yards. Just saying

I got a Euroarms Zouave that will hit a one-liter milk container at 50 yards 90% of the time with 60 grains of 3F Goex if I do my part.

 

[Nobade]

That P-H version of the mold has pretty thick skirts. You should be getting good bump up but probably not. I'd try increasing the powder charge 5 grains at a time and see if you get to a point where it starts working. If you can turn a new base pin you might try a bigger one to make the skirt thinner also.

 

[dave951]

There's no secret to getting minies to shoot well.

In troubleshooting your problem-
Is the lead pure? Any alloy like wheelweights is death on accuracy with minies. I bring this up because lots of folks will use lead they've been told is pure, but bubba is selling scrap wheel weights.

What caps and what condition is the nipple in? This can make a huge difference.

What brand powder?

What did you use for lube?

I know these are not target rifles, they are battle rifles. However I think a 4-5 inch group at 100 meters should be obtainable. My frustration is with the fact that almost every bullet keyholed the target.

This is my first experience with rifle muskets.

A good condition Parker Hale with proper loading is quite capable of fine accuracy-
40gr 3f Old E, beeswax/lard lube, RWS caps 50yd

 

[Keyhole]

I once had a little keyholing with my ‘64 us springfield using .575 minies, I ended up increasing my load by 10gr and using tallow lube instead of bore butter. No issues since then…

 

[Rifleman1776]

Is the lead pure? Any alloy like wheelweights is death on accuracy with minies.

My thought exactly also. Do use only pure lead so the skirt will expand into the rifling. As with any ml gun you should work up your loads to find what works. I would start about 50 gr. increase in 5 gr. increments until you get to the sweet spot.

 

[Widows Son]

Thank you for your replies. I will definitely get some certified pure lead and try again.

My lube is 80/20 beef tallow & beeswax. It’s excellent stuff. The fouling stays buttery soft and the 20th shot loads as easily as the first. The nipple was brand new

 

[wiscoaster]

What I found with my 1861 was that the tighter the fit of the Minie ball, the better the group. I don't know about Parker Hales, or the Lyman conicals the OP is using, but Pedersoli repros are known to have rifling that's way too shallow for the "loose" Minie balls to properly engage, and they end up stripping and tumbling (in my limited experience with same). If you don't have to ram the ball down with some degree of force, it's probably too "loose" to engage the rifling and properly spin up, again, in my limited experience with my rifle musket.

 

[PastorB]

Like some other fellas have already said, measure your bore and get a Minie .001-.002 undersized. My original Colt Special Musket will not stay on a 5 gallon bucket at 25 yards with .575-.577 bullets, no matter the powder charge. Using proper .580-.581 Minies, I get 1.5"-2" groups at 100 yards with 60 grains of any powder other than Goex 2f and Pyro RS. They simply do not expand the skirts enough to engage the rifling, as a result I get keyholes at 20 paces using those two powders. Pyro P, Swiss, Goex 3f, and 777 all work great.

 

[Widows Son]

I a grateful for everyone’s help. Bless you all and good shooting!

 

[Buckskinquin]

I have a Lyman 575213 mold that casts minies with a thin skirt. I shoot a 1863 Bridesburg musket. I also shot 60 -65 grains 3F with limited success. An NSSA member recommended cutting back to 50 grains and I saw an improvement. Notice dave951 target. He notes 40 gr 3F at 50 yds. give 40 grains at 40 yds and 50 at 100 a try.

I have a Parker Hale P53 in excellent condition. I cast up bullets from a Lyman mould 577213PH. The bullets mic at .577 and they are a slip-fit in the muzzle requiring firm thumb pressure to start, but load smoothly down the bore. I weighed all the bullets to 542-543 grains and used soft lead.

I put up a target at 50 & 100 metres and loaded with 60 grains ffg. Using the 6 o’clock hold (because it’s a repeatable consistency hold) I began at 50 meters. I couldn’t hit the paper at all. After 5 rounds I tried 65 grains but no results. I couldn’t tell if I was high or low. Then I switched over to 60 grains of fffg powder and I began to hit the target more or less consistently. I tried 65 grains of fffg and things stayed about the same.

I know these are not target rifles, they are battle rifles. However I think a 4-5 inch group at 100 meters should be obtainable. My frustration is with the fact that almost every bullet keyholed the target.

This is my first experience with rifle muskets.

 

[Rifleman1776]

. I cast up bullets from a Lyman mould 577213PH.

The full term for that mold is: 575213OS. The 'OS' meaning "old style". At one time Pete Allen was a near unbeatable champion with the CW rifle musket. The 575213OS was his projectile of choice. It has a thin skirt and when cast of pure lead it grips the rifling as it should and is very accurate.

 

[dave951]

I have a Lyman 575213 mold that casts minies with a thin skirt. I shoot a 1863 Bridesburg musket. I also shot 60 -65 grains 3F with limited success. An NSSA member recommended cutting back to 50 grains and I saw an improvement. Notice dave951 target. He notes 40 gr 3F at 50 yds. give 40 grains at 40 yds and 50 at 100 a try.

The idea of "cutting back" the charge is simple. Swiss 3f is about 10% more energetic than 2f and has less fouling. Meaning, the skirt grips the rifling almost at the instant of ignition and a 45g charge is about the equivalent of 50g 2f. Depending on the bullet, I've found I have to vary my charge levels for best accuracy. The Rapine Trashcan takes 45g 3f Swiss and Lens Lube for best accuracy and at that, it's one ragged hole at 50yd. This bullet is the one that just doesn't seem to like beeswax/lard and I've tried it.

Past that, the idea of "service load" is based on the powder available back in the day. We do not have the same powder therefore, any attempt at the "service load" is just an approximation at best so I look for the best accuracy with the least fouling so I can rule out the gun in my list of excuses during competition. Usually missed targets are simply operator error.

 

[Buckskinquin]

The full term for that mold is: 575213OS. The 'OS' meaning "old style". At one time Pete Allen was a near unbeatable champion with the CW rifle musket. The 575213OS was his projectile of choice. It has a thin skirt and when cast of pure lead it grips the rifling as it should and is very accurate.

Lyman offers 4 different minie ball molds in 58 caliber. OS and PH listed as different in some way.

 

[jimairwin]

I have a Parker Hale P53 in excellent condition. I cast up bullets from a Lyman mould 577213PH. The bullets mic at .577 and they are a slip-fit in the muzzle requiring firm thumb pressure to start, but load smoothly down the bore. I weighed all the bullets to 542-543 grains and used soft lead.

I put up a target at 50 & 100 metres and loaded with 60 grains ffg. Using the 6 o’clock hold (because it’s a repeatable consistency hold) I began at 50 meters. I couldn’t hit the paper at all. After 5 rounds I tried 65 grains but no results. I couldn’t tell if I was high or low. Then I switched over to 60 grains of fffg powder and I began to hit the target more or less consistently. I tried 65 grains of fffg and things stayed about the same.

I know these are not target rifles, they are battle rifles. However I think a 4-5 inch group at 100 meters should be obtainable. My frustration is with the fact that almost every bullet keyholed the target.

This is my first experience with rifle muskets.

Something is definitely way off. I used to shoot tighter groups with similar minie ball (RCBS 500 grain) at 200 yds... set a record at 200 yds sitting position. Had to shoot near top of target to hit center using open sights. Try many things...be observant...learn and record results. You'll have to wipe with damp patch between shots. Snap at least one cap between strings to keep breech clean. Many things to learn and details to watch.
Good luck!

 

[Widows Son]

Hello again. Thank you for your advice. Unfortunately I haven’t yet been able to get to the range to try anything. Here is a picture of my 50 metre target (it was a used target, thus the nice smaller round holes in the 9 & 6 ring). As you can see they are tumbling badly.

 

[User_Dan]

Hello again. Thank you for your advice. Unfortunately I haven’t yet been able to get to the range to try anything. Here is a picture of my 50 metre target (it was a used target, thus the nice smaller round holes in the 9 & 6 ring). As you can see they are tumbling badly.

I couldnt get the 577 213 PH pill to fly straight at all. I found the thinner the skirt the better they flew.

 

[Dwight Dutton]

Hello again. Thank you for your advice. Unfortunately I haven’t yet been able to get to the range to try anything. Here is a picture of my 50 metre target (it was a used target, thus the nice smaller round holes in the 9 & 6 ring). As you can see they are tumbling badly.

I use the formula I got from cap&ball on Youtube. Caliber x twist rate x 2 = max BP powder charge with plain lead projectile. If I exceed that my minie balls tumble as yours do. Stay under that limit and they work fine. With my rifle it is a .54 with a 28" twist. 31 grains sounds pretty anemic, but thats all I can load with plain lead if I want it to work.

Use this formula with a civil war Springfield and you get a max charge of 75. Standard combat load was 60.

 

[aussie pete]

Thank you for your replies. I will definitely get some certified pure lead and try again.

My lube is 80/20 beef tallow & beeswax. It’s excellent stuff. The fouling stays buttery soft and the 20th shot loads as easily as the first. The nipple was brand new

Hi Widow's Son. I take it that your mix is 80% beeswax and 20% tallow? Not the other way round? If mostly tallow, I would advise to switch that ratio about.

I have a Parker Hale 53; I have it shooting remarkably well now. I found my rifled musket was finicky as to the amount of lube it preferred. Too much and accuracy was terrible, keyholing. First, I dipped the minies into 70/30 beeswax and lard, then loaded them letting the muzzle remove the excess when seating - not good at all! Then, I cut a plastic funnel at the mouth to .576. This allowed a slip fit over all types of minies, removing excess lube, leaving only the grooves filled. Well, what a difference that made. It was like shooting a totally different rifle! The Goldilocks Principle I guess: Not too much, not too little, but just right!

I love experimenting with my two Parker Hales (1853 and 1858). My lube has gone from 70/30 to 80/20 due to our Australian hot summers. I have used 500gn standard Lee minies, the 'trashcan', a lovely little target minie, and round ball. Oh, and I have had some fun paper patching too.

Of some note, I did borrow a mate's mold that was made expressly for the Parker Hales (I think the one you mention), but the resulting minie was very heavy, used a lot of lead, and the skirt was a lot thicker than the types I am having success with. I decided that I wouldn't go that route, handing that mold back to my friend.

Like you, I too had problems with the standard sight at 50 metres. Not wanting to mess with my rifles, keeping them all original, I tried using a very fine sight - success at 50 with a 6 o'clock hold!

One more thing, I'm mindful of the lengthy reply; I currently drop an equal amount of polenta over my powder charge and it improves accuracy too.

Please feel free to PM me for further discussion.

Kind regards, Pete

 

[dave951]

Trashcan minies at 50yd. 44g 3f Swiss