Hi I am thinking about buying/making a BP smoothbore/shotgun to hunt turkeys with. Leaning towards a flintlock. I was wondering what you turkey hunters recommend and what you use for hunting them. My current turkey gun is a 3" magnum 12 gauge, full choke. What would be the best BP gun in your opinion? What powder charge and shot size, gauge/bore etc. Thanks
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Turkey gun
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This probably belongs in the ML hunting forum, but I will give you my opinion.
I use my 20 ga. trade gun. It is flintlock, 42 inch barrel, cylinder bore. I have taken 3 turkeys with it. You just have to wait for them to get in close (about 20+/- yards). My load for turkeys is 75 grains 2f powder, one over powder card, 3 overshot cards, 1 1/4 oz. #5 shot and one overshot card. Decent pattern out to about 20 yards, but I know if I worked at some more it could be better.
Now all that being said, I am going to get a 12 ga. double barrel caplock and convert it to flintlock. The 12 should give a bit more range for those stubborn Toms that rufuse to come in those last few yards, as well as more range to try for geese and ducks.
If you think you want a flintlock, go for it. I don't think you will regret your decision.
I use my 20 ga. trade gun. It is flintlock, 42 inch barrel, cylinder bore. I have taken 3 turkeys with it. You just have to wait for them to get in close (about 20+/- yards). My load for turkeys is 75 grains 2f powder, one over powder card, 3 overshot cards, 1 1/4 oz. #5 shot and one overshot card. Decent pattern out to about 20 yards, but I know if I worked at some more it could be better.
Now all that being said, I am going to get a 12 ga. double barrel caplock and convert it to flintlock. The 12 should give a bit more range for those stubborn Toms that rufuse to come in those last few yards, as well as more range to try for geese and ducks.
If you think you want a flintlock, go for it. I don't think you will regret your decision.
paulvallandigham
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You are not going to get a BP shotgun to give you the same range and velocity that you now get with that modern shotgun and its loads. The closest you may get is buying one of the Pedersoli 12 ga. guns with screw in chokes. The come in 12, and 10 gauges. The 10 gauge might come close to delivering what you now expect.
If you buy a BP shotgun without chokes, you limit your range to 25 yards. I don't know if you are prepared for that change. BP hunting is about adding extra problems, and increasing the handicap against you, and in favor of the birds. You are going to pass on a lot more shots with a ML shotgun than you would ever dream of doing with a modern gun. That makes successfully killing a turkey under those handicaps all the more sweet a victory, and the bird a better trophy. If you are ready for that kind of hunting, come on ahead. We know from our own experiences how much satisfaction you will have if you do get a bird. And all your friends who still hunt with modern guns, and loads will be wide-eyed and astounded that you could kill anything with " That old thing !".
If you buy a BP shotgun without chokes, you limit your range to 25 yards. I don't know if you are prepared for that change. BP hunting is about adding extra problems, and increasing the handicap against you, and in favor of the birds. You are going to pass on a lot more shots with a ML shotgun than you would ever dream of doing with a modern gun. That makes successfully killing a turkey under those handicaps all the more sweet a victory, and the bird a better trophy. If you are ready for that kind of hunting, come on ahead. We know from our own experiences how much satisfaction you will have if you do get a bird. And all your friends who still hunt with modern guns, and loads will be wide-eyed and astounded that you could kill anything with " That old thing !".
If you make a shot cup from paper, like making a paper cartridge, you might be able to tighten the pattern/extend the range. Fine tune by using different weights of paper, more or less wraps in making it etc. Would need testing of course. I have heard it works.
Dan
Dan
BP shotguns do not suffer any great velocity penalty compared to modern loads. Not like comparing modern CF rifles to BP rifles.
Velocity is going to be a function of powder charge. Modern smokeless shotgun velocities are all well within the realm of BP. Pressures will not be excessive.
FFG Swiss BP should make 1300 fps or so with 1 1/4 oz and 3 3/4 dr in a 12 bore. The weaker old Goex would do 1250 or better. Modern top 2 3/4" 1 1/4 oz loads do about 1300-1350.
If 4 dram is used (3" load) and 1 3/8 shot velocity also be ball park.
Recoil will be somewhat higher with BP.
Look to Lyman's BP Handbook shotgun data and the modern loading data available on the WWW at sites like[url] alliantpowder.com[/url] for velocity comparisons.
Dan
Velocity is going to be a function of powder charge. Modern smokeless shotgun velocities are all well within the realm of BP. Pressures will not be excessive.
FFG Swiss BP should make 1300 fps or so with 1 1/4 oz and 3 3/4 dr in a 12 bore. The weaker old Goex would do 1250 or better. Modern top 2 3/4" 1 1/4 oz loads do about 1300-1350.
If 4 dram is used (3" load) and 1 3/8 shot velocity also be ball park.
Recoil will be somewhat higher with BP.
Look to Lyman's BP Handbook shotgun data and the modern loading data available on the WWW at sites like[url] alliantpowder.com[/url] for velocity comparisons.
Dan
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I built a flintlock just for hunting spring gobblers a few yrs. back and like you I was knew to flintlocks...I guess you are anyway.
Like most everything else I get into I now wish I had done a few things different and am in the process of getting things together to build another one the way I now wish I had done the first.
Actually the major reason..or excuse..I have for another one is to extend my killing range. As many have posted using a cylinder bore..no choke.. you are realistically looking at about 25yds. + a few if you are lucky.
I now have a 20ga. cylinder bore and am well pleased with it's performance... Gobbler
out to 25yds. but when you get past that things are too iffy no matter how you load it.
I'm going to build a 16ga. and get it jug choked for turkey hunting and extend my range out to around 35yds. I hunt open public lands in Fl. and gobblers sometimes want to hang back just past 30yds. If I was huntling private or less pressured birds I would just stay with what I got and call them in closer or have more chances to do so anyway.
I'm also going to go with a little shorter barrel..20ga. is 36" and am going to go with 32" or 34" on the 16ga. The only reason is it's less barrel to be seen when having to move into shooting posistion if the bird comes in on the off side. Haven't decided yet on the style or school of flintlock, but it will be lightweight with Colerain octagon to round barrel..probably have to cut their 44" down and a Chamber's lock.
Like most everything else I get into I now wish I had done a few things different and am in the process of getting things together to build another one the way I now wish I had done the first.
Actually the major reason..or excuse..I have for another one is to extend my killing range. As many have posted using a cylinder bore..no choke.. you are realistically looking at about 25yds. + a few if you are lucky.
I now have a 20ga. cylinder bore and am well pleased with it's performance... Gobbler
out to 25yds. but when you get past that things are too iffy no matter how you load it.
I'm going to build a 16ga. and get it jug choked for turkey hunting and extend my range out to around 35yds. I hunt open public lands in Fl. and gobblers sometimes want to hang back just past 30yds. If I was huntling private or less pressured birds I would just stay with what I got and call them in closer or have more chances to do so anyway.
I'm also going to go with a little shorter barrel..20ga. is 36" and am going to go with 32" or 34" on the 16ga. The only reason is it's less barrel to be seen when having to move into shooting posistion if the bird comes in on the off side. Haven't decided yet on the style or school of flintlock, but it will be lightweight with Colerain octagon to round barrel..probably have to cut their 44" down and a Chamber's lock.
paulvallandigham
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WADR< speed isn't everything to consider using a BP shotgun. The fact that the gun is not choked, you don't use plastice shot cups to protect the shot from rubbing on the bore, all contribute to a much shorter range firearm. Add to that the fact that all that extra velocity- in my mind, and the tables I have spend hours trying to get around, anyload over the speed of sound must blows the patterns worse- is lost in the first 20 yds outside the barrel, and there is little justification for using heavy dram loads in a 12 gauge. Read V.M. Starr's article on Bob Spenser's Black Power Notebook site[url]
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/starr.html[/url]
to learn from the master how to load a BP shotgun properly.
Now, IF YOU have a choked BP shotgun, and IF YOU use plastic wads to protect your shot( I want to see you get those through that choke!, without unscrewing the choke tube everytime you load the gun.) you can load them up with faster burning 3 Fg powders, either Goex, or Swiss, and approach the velocities the modern guys get with their guns. No doubt about that. And with the correct choice of shot size, and the right Choke, you might also get fairly good patterns.
I think most of us who shoot BP shotgun like the challenge of having to take closer shots because the guns have no choke, and we don't use plastic anything in them. I have killed Pheasant and Chukkar partridge out to 35 yds with my open choke 12 ga. gun, but those are truly long shots, and only my choice of #5 shot for my hunting load insured that if the bird was hit, it would come down.
to learn from the master how to load a BP shotgun properly.
Now, IF YOU have a choked BP shotgun, and IF YOU use plastic wads to protect your shot( I want to see you get those through that choke!, without unscrewing the choke tube everytime you load the gun.) you can load them up with faster burning 3 Fg powders, either Goex, or Swiss, and approach the velocities the modern guys get with their guns. No doubt about that. And with the correct choice of shot size, and the right Choke, you might also get fairly good patterns.
I think most of us who shoot BP shotgun like the challenge of having to take closer shots because the guns have no choke, and we don't use plastic anything in them. I have killed Pheasant and Chukkar partridge out to 35 yds with my open choke 12 ga. gun, but those are truly long shots, and only my choice of #5 shot for my hunting load insured that if the bird was hit, it would come down.
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I'm having a New England Fowler built right now specifically for turkeys. It will be a reproduction of NE 20 on page 52 of Grinslade's new book on "Flintlock Fowlers". I did have the 56 inch barrel shortened to 51 inches, and I had the Gentleman out in Iowa or Nebraska jug choke it 30 thousandts.(Can't recall his name,and too lazy to get up and find it...he is highly recommended by members of this Forum,though). Ed Rayle made the 16ga barrel for it,and Dave Dodds is putting it togather for me.
Am I expecting too much to think that I'll be able to reach out 40 yards with it? :hmm:
Am I expecting too much to think that I'll be able to reach out 40 yards with it? :hmm:
I have taken 3 with my .20. Load is 70 gr of Goex 3f and 1 1/8 oz of #5 lead shot. Works great out to just over 20 yds.
"FFG Swiss BP should make 1300 fps or so with 1 1/4 oz and 3 3/4 dr in a 12 bore. The weaker old Goex would do 1250 or better." dan, i do not want to make and enemy here but this statement needs to be confronted so some will not constru it to be the average case.. :grin: you can get a fadaldas book or on old hodgedons book or a chronograph.. but most bp shooters just cant do it, especially without having pattern problems.. you can get some pretty impressive velocities once in awhile but the pattern board target is usually blown, and the phone book termimal velocity depth test can show pennetration differneces of those loads indicating a blown pattern.. . this meaning gas blowby exellerates some idividual shot, and other shot is passed by the main power stroke, or other internal problems that we will never figure out to the full extent.. yes some loads will give some fast velocites, but their average velocity will be tough to keep over 1100 fps in cool weather...the good news is velocity doesnt seem to be a problem with turkeys anyway.. . as to the question for stationary birds like turkey (this would be an expensive gun for such a small use) i would get a barrel of about 16 gauge or 12 guage, 42-46 inch barrel so you can use more powder in cold weather and not have power stroke probems with a jug choke (full aprox .040") interfering,... load will be determined with the gun at pattern board, and a chronograph will be best to determine what exactly is going on.. ... as to modern loads some heavy shot (TM) 12 guage loads have been giving complete passthrus on ducks with 1 1/8 0z number 7 shot, these loads are beginning to approach steel shot velocities, but im not sure what they are going these days, but its quite impressive.......im hopeing someone will come on line here and tell me im wrong and how to get dependable 1300fps loads with bp.. :grin: dave...
paulvallandigham
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YOu need to read the V.M. Starr article on Bob Spenser's Black Powder Notebook to learn about using Black powder shotguns.[url] http://members.aye.net/~bspen/starr.html[/url]
Unless you are using plastic shotcups to protect the shot, you are not going to get the tight patterns, even with a full choke " Jug choke " in your gun, at those velocities. You may get those velocities using Goex 3Fg, and Swiss 3F powders, but all that speed is lost in the first 20 yds. Check the tables in the Lyman Shotshell Reloading Handbook, which I have studied at great length trying to improve down range velocities with both modern shotgun shells, and with my black powder shotguns.
IMHO, you are much better off doing as V.M.Starr recommends and keeping your loads below the speed of sound( 1100 fps) at the muzzle. At the 20 -35 yd ranges that your gun will pattern best with shot, you get good on-target energy from the pattern, and can kill game. I don't believe you are going to make a 60 yd. killing machine out of any ML shotgun no matter how much powder you stuff in the barrel. All you accomplish is blowing patterns.
Now, if you are using plastic shotcups( wads), and that gun is full choked, you can get patterns that approach the full choke patterns you get shooting modern guns. And, with choke, you can extend the killing range of your patterns. Without protecting that shot from rubbing flats on pellets as the column travels down the barrel, you just won't get the patterns you expect out of a modern gun and loads. Too many pellets develop flats, and fall out of the pattern within the first 20 yds. The smaller the gauge you use, the more pellets rub against the inside of the barrel, and the fewer pellets remain in the core pattern.
Your quest for 1300 fps seems to be irrelevant. I suspect you would not even be bothering except fot the fact that you spent the money to have a full jug choke cut into your gun. I wish you well, and hope you will give us a report on what kind of patterns you are actually getting with the gun.
I have a full choke barrel on a modern gun, and after spending enough time on patterning shot out of it, have settle on a "light " 2 3/4 dram, 1 1/4 oz. #5 shot for my hunting load. It seems to deliver the most shot in the patterns at the longer ranges. The velocity is well below 1200 fps, and probably below 1100 fps.My 20 ga. Fowler load is in the 1030 fps. range, but the gun has no
no choke. It actually throws a very good pattern at 25 yds.
Unless you are using plastic shotcups to protect the shot, you are not going to get the tight patterns, even with a full choke " Jug choke " in your gun, at those velocities. You may get those velocities using Goex 3Fg, and Swiss 3F powders, but all that speed is lost in the first 20 yds. Check the tables in the Lyman Shotshell Reloading Handbook, which I have studied at great length trying to improve down range velocities with both modern shotgun shells, and with my black powder shotguns.
IMHO, you are much better off doing as V.M.Starr recommends and keeping your loads below the speed of sound( 1100 fps) at the muzzle. At the 20 -35 yd ranges that your gun will pattern best with shot, you get good on-target energy from the pattern, and can kill game. I don't believe you are going to make a 60 yd. killing machine out of any ML shotgun no matter how much powder you stuff in the barrel. All you accomplish is blowing patterns.
Now, if you are using plastic shotcups( wads), and that gun is full choked, you can get patterns that approach the full choke patterns you get shooting modern guns. And, with choke, you can extend the killing range of your patterns. Without protecting that shot from rubbing flats on pellets as the column travels down the barrel, you just won't get the patterns you expect out of a modern gun and loads. Too many pellets develop flats, and fall out of the pattern within the first 20 yds. The smaller the gauge you use, the more pellets rub against the inside of the barrel, and the fewer pellets remain in the core pattern.
Your quest for 1300 fps seems to be irrelevant. I suspect you would not even be bothering except fot the fact that you spent the money to have a full jug choke cut into your gun. I wish you well, and hope you will give us a report on what kind of patterns you are actually getting with the gun.
I have a full choke barrel on a modern gun, and after spending enough time on patterning shot out of it, have settle on a "light " 2 3/4 dram, 1 1/4 oz. #5 shot for my hunting load. It seems to deliver the most shot in the patterns at the longer ranges. The velocity is well below 1200 fps, and probably below 1100 fps.My 20 ga. Fowler load is in the 1030 fps. range, but the gun has no
no choke. It actually throws a very good pattern at 25 yds.
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I use basicly the same load rebel uses.
Of all the powder and shot combinations I have tried
65gr powder,1 1/8 shot (#5)
is the best power/density combo I have found.
I have always watched and wondered about why
every one makes such a big deal about magnum
loads for the big bird.
Pattern density VS skinny turkey neck
determines who wins the day.
Of all the powder and shot combinations I have tried
65gr powder,1 1/8 shot (#5)
is the best power/density combo I have found.
I have always watched and wondered about why
every one makes such a big deal about magnum
loads for the big bird.
Pattern density VS skinny turkey neck
determines who wins the day.
I use this article as my guide to get set up for Turkeys:The Wolf said:
[url] http://members.aye.net/~bspen/SmoothboreLoads.html[/url]
Mine is a GM .62cal Flint smoothbore barrel, had it jug choked 'Full', and the turkey load from this article averages 16 pellets in a 5" circle at 40 yards.
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I, too, am taking my 20ga fowler out this year for its first stint as a turkey gun. It's done me well for pheasant and quail- but I have one lingering question after reading these posts: I see #5 shot is most common- why not use #4 (which is the maximum size allowed by my state for a turkey)?
If it will pattern well in your gun use it. I am using #2 this year because it throws the best patterns in the short Bess.
Muggsy said:
I have been hunting with 100grs of #6's and 20grs of #4's. I mounted one of the gobblers I killed last yr and only found #4's. So before the season I'm going to do some more patterning..that's if I don't get my new flinter built in time..with a lot of emphasis on the # 4's.
paulvallandigham
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Mugsy: You need to pattern you gun using #6, #5, and #4 shot to see what performs the best for you and your gun. You will go through a lot of paper targets made at your local copy shot to find the combination of shot, and powder, and wads to give you the most pellets on the turkey's neck and head.
We use #5 because of the down range energy the pellets have- 40 yds, and under- for an open cylinder gun, compared to the # of pellets we get on target with the #4 shot, or the lack of energy down range we get using #6 shot. #5 IS A GOOD COMPROMISE, of pattern density and retained energy per pellet. Since only the pellets that hit the turkey's neck or head are likely to kill it, pattern is important. But, because the turkey is a pretty tough critter to kill, pellet energy at the target is also important. If you can consistently call a turkey within 25 yards, by all means, use #6 shot. It is more than adequate at that range. However, if you may have to take a shot at an old Tom at 30-40 yds, then you are better off using #5 shot.
I hope that helps you understand the reasoning, and the process in working up loads. Now, if you have a shotgun that is choked, and will throw tight patterns at 40 yds, then #6 shot will work there,as well, since you will have so many more pellets hit the turkey with that tight pattern.
So that you understand the problem, I once shot a crippled Canada Goose at about 15 feet with a load of steel BBs, 1 1/4 ounce! and destroyed most of its head. However, it was still kicking and moving around more than an hour later. I finally cut its head and neck off with my knife to stop the distraction of the wings beating behind the blind.
We use #5 because of the down range energy the pellets have- 40 yds, and under- for an open cylinder gun, compared to the # of pellets we get on target with the #4 shot, or the lack of energy down range we get using #6 shot. #5 IS A GOOD COMPROMISE, of pattern density and retained energy per pellet. Since only the pellets that hit the turkey's neck or head are likely to kill it, pattern is important. But, because the turkey is a pretty tough critter to kill, pellet energy at the target is also important. If you can consistently call a turkey within 25 yards, by all means, use #6 shot. It is more than adequate at that range. However, if you may have to take a shot at an old Tom at 30-40 yds, then you are better off using #5 shot.
I hope that helps you understand the reasoning, and the process in working up loads. Now, if you have a shotgun that is choked, and will throw tight patterns at 40 yds, then #6 shot will work there,as well, since you will have so many more pellets hit the turkey with that tight pattern.
So that you understand the problem, I once shot a crippled Canada Goose at about 15 feet with a load of steel BBs, 1 1/4 ounce! and destroyed most of its head. However, it was still kicking and moving around more than an hour later. I finally cut its head and neck off with my knife to stop the distraction of the wings beating behind the blind.
bigbore442001
50 Cal.
If I were to make a flinter solely for turkey and maybe goose,this is what it would look like.
Ok. I am not a gunsmith but you can fire away at my idea.
For such a large bird, I would go with a 10 guage barrel. It would be 40" long with a jug choke. It would have front and rear sights, like a rifle since when turkey hunting, you generally shoot it like a rifle. A thick half stock with a good lock. Again I am not a flintlock shooter but it would be more like a rifle than a fowler.
Ok. I am not a gunsmith but you can fire away at my idea.
For such a large bird, I would go with a 10 guage barrel. It would be 40" long with a jug choke. It would have front and rear sights, like a rifle since when turkey hunting, you generally shoot it like a rifle. A thick half stock with a good lock. Again I am not a flintlock shooter but it would be more like a rifle than a fowler.
