varsity07840
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Tennessee Valley Manufacturing said:
Jack:
Have you always used these barrels? I have one of your fowlers that you built well before selling to Matt.
Duane
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TVM 20 gauge smoothbore barrels?
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Jack:
Have you always used these barrels? I have one of your fowlers that you built well before selling to Matt.
Duane
There is nothing wrong with using moly steel tube for a barrel and joining it to a breech portion of the barrel at the wedding band. Welcome to why it is called the wedding band!
I use thin wall moly tubing for the high pressure tanks in my pellet guns. They are tested to around 6000 PSI using a grease gun. Grease is used because you can easily apply great force and if something lets go, the grease just releases the pressure thru the problem area rather than blowing something up. I would have absolutely no qualms at all about a barrel that used tubing for the length of the barrel. It is not strong enough for the actual breech area, and if you bought some with a thick enough wall to be able to cut the final profile into it in one piece, it would cost you more than buying commercial barrels from a supplier.
By the way, I know several folks that send the steel back and will let their lawyer do the talking if needed. The steel industry is like dealing with used car salesmen! Some of them actually print spec's on tubing coming in from china to try and pass it off as properly graded US made steel.
I use thin wall moly tubing for the high pressure tanks in my pellet guns. They are tested to around 6000 PSI using a grease gun. Grease is used because you can easily apply great force and if something lets go, the grease just releases the pressure thru the problem area rather than blowing something up. I would have absolutely no qualms at all about a barrel that used tubing for the length of the barrel. It is not strong enough for the actual breech area, and if you bought some with a thick enough wall to be able to cut the final profile into it in one piece, it would cost you more than buying commercial barrels from a supplier.
By the way, I know several folks that send the steel back and will let their lawyer do the talking if needed. The steel industry is like dealing with used car salesmen! Some of them actually print spec's on tubing coming in from china to try and pass it off as properly graded US made steel.
varsity07840
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Runner said:
I must say, I've never heard of that process before. I would have thought that the term wedding band came along well before anyone thought of using tubing for a barrel, welded or not.Seems a bit labor intensive to me. Why not just use a ready made barrel and be done with it?
Duane
No. They are a solid one piece barrel. The wedding band is turned in on a lathe.
The ones I saw using the hydraulic tubing as barrels at the last gathering over at the bar in Dupo were two piece barrels. The were joined to the breech area at the wedding band area and then honed to match. I don't know who made them. The builder said they were not regulated to target and that had to be done after purchase. Can't say that I really spent much time on them. He had an 11 plus pound hawken replica there that pretty much had my attention. That and one of the little 22 rifles with the twist to load breech.
I just spent a while online at McMaster Carr trying to find a moly steel seamless tubing that would allow you to use it as the breech area of a gun designed to develop 10,000 PSI in the breech area. As far as I know, it does not exist. The thickest wall they show is .188. The tubing works fine if used as a sleeve inside a breech or wedded to a breech and used as a barrel extention only. Someone else will have to find steel tubing with a wall thickness that would allow a breech to be formed out of it if you want to claim that the breech and barrel is one piece. As far as I know, there is no seamless high pressure tubing appropriate for forming the breech area of a barrel out there, and if there is, it will cost you 100$ for 4 feet of it before you start machining! The wedding band is exactly what it is called.
I just spent a while online at McMaster Carr trying to find a moly steel seamless tubing that would allow you to use it as the breech area of a gun designed to develop 10,000 PSI in the breech area. As far as I know, it does not exist. The thickest wall they show is .188. The tubing works fine if used as a sleeve inside a breech or wedded to a breech and used as a barrel extention only. Someone else will have to find steel tubing with a wall thickness that would allow a breech to be formed out of it if you want to claim that the breech and barrel is one piece. As far as I know, there is no seamless high pressure tubing appropriate for forming the breech area of a barrel out there, and if there is, it will cost you 100$ for 4 feet of it before you start machining! The wedding band is exactly what it is called.
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Runner: Don't know it it's what you were looking for but Metals Depot (http://www.metalsdepot.com/products/hrsteel2.phtml?page=rndtube&LimAcc=$LimAcc)
has DOM tubing 1" OD/0.250" wall/0.500 ID. This is $36 for 4 ft.
Whether it meets the pressure specs is another issue; you'd know better than I.
Hope that this helps.
Pete
has DOM tubing 1" OD/0.250" wall/0.500 ID. This is $36 for 4 ft.
Whether it meets the pressure specs is another issue; you'd know better than I.
Hope that this helps.
Pete
John Taylor
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DOM is a mild steel. I used a piece of the 1/2" X1" for a cartridge barrel 50-110 and had no problems with it. I was lucky and the bore was.495" when it came in and it reamed smooth to .500 before rifling. The 1886 Win. has a round barrel that is 7/8" OD and a .510 groove diameter. This leaves a wall of .182". The best tubing to use would be the 4130 aircraft steel but it's hard to fine with any wall thickness. Just got done making a 10 gauge barrel for a 1901 Win. from some that had a 3/8" wall. The bore was about .005" over but who can tell the difference on a 10. I can get some more in that size but shipping is almost as much as the steel.
Most of what I use has a bigger inside diameter.
A cartridge barrel does not require a breech plug larger than the bore and threads to hold it in place, so I would guess you could get pretty close.
By the way, how much is that thick wall you mentioned? I am considering a 50 caliber smoothbore air gun and being able to contour it a little would be nice. I don't have to deal with anything over 3000 psi and usually closer to 2000 psi.
A cartridge barrel does not require a breech plug larger than the bore and threads to hold it in place, so I would guess you could get pretty close.
By the way, how much is that thick wall you mentioned? I am considering a 50 caliber smoothbore air gun and being able to contour it a little would be nice. I don't have to deal with anything over 3000 psi and usually closer to 2000 psi.
I have a .75 ID x 1-1/4" OD x 48" L DOM Mild Steel Tube A513 that I got from online metals. I have it turned down in a double taper from(cleaned up enough to true) breech to muzzle with a wall at muzzle of .94 . From what I see online it has a yield strength of 54,000 psi. I need to make a test breechplug yet to stuff 250 grs ffg and 2 patched balls down its throat to see if it holds.I figger it should thogh since this is the same steel that Rustic Arms (L.E.Williams)uses for their smoothies. :wink:
John Taylor
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The thick wall has a .780" bore. There is a limited supply at one shop where I do business. Runs about $60 for a 4' piece plus shipping.
John Taylor
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12L14 has a yield strength of 60,000, lots of muzzle loading barrels out of it. I don't think you will have a problem with the DOM.
I think .780 is pushing it a bit for air power!
I think that Quackenbush was getting around 700 fps with a bare 495 ball in his 50 Outlaw. I figure I can beat that with a muzzleloaded patched ball and a longer barrel. I wish he still sold his 45 muzzleloader so I could just buy one of them!
I think that Quackenbush was getting around 700 fps with a bare 495 ball in his 50 Outlaw. I figure I can beat that with a muzzleloaded patched ball and a longer barrel. I wish he still sold his 45 muzzleloader so I could just buy one of them!
I have bought three smoothbore barrels from TVM and have experienced no problems as far as holding up under loads. Excellent price for a barrel and correctly fitted breech plug.
Each barrel has taken about five hours to draw and finish.
As Paul stated the barrels start as heavy-walled tube and are milled. Nothing dangerous about using tube.
I've made 62 cal barrels from 1/2" sch 40 and 54 cal from 1/2" sch 80. Both threaded and pinned breech. I'm still shooting one of these after 22 years and still have all my body parts.
Each barrel has taken about five hours to draw and finish.
As Paul stated the barrels start as heavy-walled tube and are milled. Nothing dangerous about using tube.
I've made 62 cal barrels from 1/2" sch 40 and 54 cal from 1/2" sch 80. Both threaded and pinned breech. I'm still shooting one of these after 22 years and still have all my body parts.
Jack Garner
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I don't know who you talked to, but give me a call back and ask to talk to me only. Merry Christmas, Jack
A statement was made that I must disagree with, that statement being, "DOM tubing is seamless tubing."
DOM is not "seamless tubing", and it is not appreciably stronger than just plain welded tubing as in the making of either Welded or DOM tubing the steel is rolled into a tube shape and the butt between the ends of the steel is welded together with a TIG or MIG welder.
Quoting "lone Star Steel Company", "To produce DOM tubing, a welded tube is cold drawn through a die and over a mandrel to create precise dimensional characteristics. This product is ordered to exacting dimensional and steel chemistry specifications."
Notice that this tubing is welded. The drawing process smooths the weld and sizes the tubing so it looks like seamless tubing however it still has a weld joint which runs the length of the tube.
As the DOM process produces a very smooth surface on this type of tubing it works well with the flared and compression fittings that are normally used to install fittings etc.
For further reading about DOM, this might be interesting:
LONE STAR STEEL COMPANY
Seamless tubing on the other hand is made from a billet of steel which is pierced.
Quoting steeluniversity, the process envolves:
"The seamless tube manufacturing process consists of the following principal stages:
* making of a hollow tube shell in the piercing or extrusion operation
* elongating the hollow tube shell by reducing its diameter and wall thickness
* making of a final tube in the hot or cold rolling process"
Follow this link for a interesting description of the process.
Steeluniversity SEAMLESS TUBING PROCESS
If you followed the last link it becomes clear that true Seamless Tubing does not have any weld joints and the entire tube is composed of a uniform material.
The process of making true Seamless tubing is as you may have seen, much more process (and labor) intense so the price of this material is higher.
The term "Cold Drawn" by itself does not signify Seamless tubing because the process is also applied to welded tubing.
It is a process of drawing the tubing thru a number of dies which reduce the tubing size and smooth its exterior. It is used for both DOM and Seamless tubing.
As I have said before, most of the makers of gun barrels who use tubing have done the engineering required to assure the safety of their product.
This involves calculating the pressure requirements and the speed of the application of the pressure.
(The speed of the pressure increase in the case of an explosive detonation requires an increase of the tubes strength by a factor of 4 over a tube which is subjected to a slowly increased pressure such as slowly opening a valve.)
Also involved is the selection of the properly heat treated material and obtaining the Steel companies Certification sheets to assure the proper material and heat treatments are what are delivered.
The selection of materials available range from SAE 1010 (53,000 PSI tensile) and 1018 (64,000 PSI tensile) thru AISI 4130 (200,000 PSI tensile) and AISI 4340 (287,000 PSI tensile). Obviously this can have a significant effect on the safety of a gun barrel. Those super high strength alloys by the way only have that strength if they are in a fully heat treated condition.
My concern with welded tubing or DOM tubing is that the welding process has been known to reduce the material properties not only by the introduction of a separate welding material if any is used, but to the base metal in what is called "the heat affected zone" which is on either side of the weld. The "heat affected" zones mechanical properties are usually reduced below the original parent material. With proper heat treatment, the original material properties can be restored however this is often not done to tubing which is being used for normal applications. I do not consider a gun barrel a "normal" application and I'm sure the makers of commercial tubing would agree with me.
Does all of this say a barrel made from DOM tubing will explode? No. As has been noted there are barrels made from this material which are being used all of the time without the slightest hint of a problem.
Would I rather have a barrel made from a true seamless material rather than a welded or welded and drawn over mandrel material tube. Yup.
zonie
DOM is not "seamless tubing", and it is not appreciably stronger than just plain welded tubing as in the making of either Welded or DOM tubing the steel is rolled into a tube shape and the butt between the ends of the steel is welded together with a TIG or MIG welder.
Quoting "lone Star Steel Company", "To produce DOM tubing, a welded tube is cold drawn through a die and over a mandrel to create precise dimensional characteristics. This product is ordered to exacting dimensional and steel chemistry specifications."
Notice that this tubing is welded. The drawing process smooths the weld and sizes the tubing so it looks like seamless tubing however it still has a weld joint which runs the length of the tube.
As the DOM process produces a very smooth surface on this type of tubing it works well with the flared and compression fittings that are normally used to install fittings etc.
For further reading about DOM, this might be interesting:
LONE STAR STEEL COMPANY
Seamless tubing on the other hand is made from a billet of steel which is pierced.
Quoting steeluniversity, the process envolves:
"The seamless tube manufacturing process consists of the following principal stages:
* making of a hollow tube shell in the piercing or extrusion operation
* elongating the hollow tube shell by reducing its diameter and wall thickness
* making of a final tube in the hot or cold rolling process"
Follow this link for a interesting description of the process.
Steeluniversity SEAMLESS TUBING PROCESS
If you followed the last link it becomes clear that true Seamless Tubing does not have any weld joints and the entire tube is composed of a uniform material.
The process of making true Seamless tubing is as you may have seen, much more process (and labor) intense so the price of this material is higher.
The term "Cold Drawn" by itself does not signify Seamless tubing because the process is also applied to welded tubing.
It is a process of drawing the tubing thru a number of dies which reduce the tubing size and smooth its exterior. It is used for both DOM and Seamless tubing.
As I have said before, most of the makers of gun barrels who use tubing have done the engineering required to assure the safety of their product.
This involves calculating the pressure requirements and the speed of the application of the pressure.
(The speed of the pressure increase in the case of an explosive detonation requires an increase of the tubes strength by a factor of 4 over a tube which is subjected to a slowly increased pressure such as slowly opening a valve.)
Also involved is the selection of the properly heat treated material and obtaining the Steel companies Certification sheets to assure the proper material and heat treatments are what are delivered.
The selection of materials available range from SAE 1010 (53,000 PSI tensile) and 1018 (64,000 PSI tensile) thru AISI 4130 (200,000 PSI tensile) and AISI 4340 (287,000 PSI tensile). Obviously this can have a significant effect on the safety of a gun barrel. Those super high strength alloys by the way only have that strength if they are in a fully heat treated condition.
My concern with welded tubing or DOM tubing is that the welding process has been known to reduce the material properties not only by the introduction of a separate welding material if any is used, but to the base metal in what is called "the heat affected zone" which is on either side of the weld. The "heat affected" zones mechanical properties are usually reduced below the original parent material. With proper heat treatment, the original material properties can be restored however this is often not done to tubing which is being used for normal applications. I do not consider a gun barrel a "normal" application and I'm sure the makers of commercial tubing would agree with me.
Does all of this say a barrel made from DOM tubing will explode? No. As has been noted there are barrels made from this material which are being used all of the time without the slightest hint of a problem.
Would I rather have a barrel made from a true seamless material rather than a welded or welded and drawn over mandrel material tube. Yup.
zonie
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