TVM Early Virginia

[Hoyt]

Sounds good to me cause I'm getting ready to put together a Bucks County, Verner slash Noll..with the Lehigh, Allentown, Bethlehem and Reading style...if I can get it all in one stock.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I think this must have happened a lot. The longer gunmaking went on in America, the more gunmakers moved around and the more gun styles bled into each other or cross-pollinated. Add in the occasional request for a special feature by a customer and the mix becomes even greater. I doubt that a gunmaker would refuse a customer's
reasonable request and if it was a really good idea he might adopt it as his own on future arms. So we do have recognized "schools" of gunmaking, but we also have guns that almost but don't quite fit any of them. Specialized pieces reflecting local needs add to the variety.
Aside from the NW trade musket which kept it's basic traits intact from onset 'til it ceased production, the only other gun that comes to mind that is so easily recognized is the Bedford rifle--another gun with characteristics so unique that most everyone can instantly recognize one. I've never heard an explanation for it's unique features, but I'm sure the reasons are sound.

 

[Okwaho]

Actually the identification of the various schools in Pennsylvania are the reult of one man's scholarship and love of the Kentucky rifle.That man was Joe Kindig Jr.who started collecting and studying them in the 1920s.At the time he began his lifelong love affair with the Kentucky rifle many of these guns were still in the possession of the descendants of the original owners so that one could view them in company of other guns of like construction, decoration, and makers. A good examole is Frederick Sell, one of the great masters.Few collections have a Frederick Sell but Joe had 24 and could study them in comparison with other rifles made in the inmmediate area.Thus it was possible for him to study the guns and particularly the Golden Age guns in virtually a controlled setting.The same was true of the early Pennsylvania furniture and allied decorative arts much of which were still together as they had been since their acquisition by the original owners.Joe Kindig Jr.rescued the Kentucky rifle from it's relegation to the scrap heaps of obscurity to an honored place in the world of native American art.Had he not catalogued these guns into the various schools,we would have today a hodge podge of "old guns"It should here be noted that his monumental work,"Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in it's Golden Age" was writtem free gratis by him as a contribution to the sum total of understanding the Kentucky rifle and particularly the ones built during its Golden Age.No other collector will ever be able to amass the collection he assembled plus guns he had for sale or trade.he owned thousands of Kentucky rifles in his lifetime and probably studied almost all of them.
Tom Patton :m2c:

 

[tg]

The swamped barrel thing is a good example and there are other "basics" so to speak that are pretty much accepted for some guns and time periods this is what the PC thing is about it is not meant to set all things in stone just those that the present level of research indicates are non-flexible such as a Siler on a 1690 French trade gun and this kind of thing...putting aside the mix and match of old and new parts which is correct if that is what it is intended to be. But to build something then try to explain it by rationalization when it does not fit the norm... (straight barrel, late style flinlock on a F&I gun for example) is a stretch and not really helpfull to those who are looking for the trends that the originals followed and trying to learn about the originals from builders/vendors.

 

[marcstephen]

I am new to this forum. I own a Early Virgina Rifle from TVM. It is a "Poor Boy" from the east. It has a Wooden patchbox and a swamped barrel. Plain Maple, Nothing fancy. I wanted a rifle that would have been used by a regular person, living and supporting his family. I talked at length with Toni, Matt, and Barry about my concept. They recommened my rifle be made as above.

They use "general" characteristics found on rifles from a part of the country, during a specific time period. If you look at books, photos, and actual examples of rifles everyone is different. Every rifle was somewhat "custom" with general characteristics made for the buyer.

I guess my point is that each rifle is one of a kind. Each rifle shoots differently. Each person shooting the rifle is different. People need to enjoy their rifles and not "nit-pick" so much.

I will always buy rifles, fowlers and equipment from Matt and Toni. I donot have the talent to build rifles, nor do I want to build a rifle. Matt and Toni are great. They have never put down any other builders, and respect the other builders as long as they are safe.

:m2c:

Marc Findlay

 

[redwing]

Pc or not TVM has brought the Flint Lock to the fore front. I have never seen so many flinters as we now have at the shoots. The reason being that TVM has a good flinter that most guys can afford.
It has taken the SNOB thing out of the flint locks. Now you don't have to spend $3000.00 to shoot a good flint lock. They have done a lot for the sport of Black powder shooting PC or not, for that we should all give them some "Attaboys"

Redwing :thanks:

 

[marcstephen]

Pc or not TVM has brought the Flint Lock to the fore front. I have never seen so many flinters as we now have at the shoots. The reason being that TVM has a good flinter that most guys can afford.
It has taken the SNOB thing out of the flint locks. Now you don't have to spend $3000.00 to shoot a good flint lock. They have done a lot for the sport of Black powder shooting PC or not, for that we should all give them some "Attaboys"

Redwing :thanks:

:RO:

Marc Findlay

 

[tg]

"People need to enjoy their rifles and not "nit-pick" so much"

the issue is not nit picking, many buidere provide affordable guns that fro a historical point of view are a few clicks above the factory stuff, If one builds an Early Virginia with a stright barrel, later styled Germaic lock and many features not commonly associated with this type of gun it is simply low on the authenticity pole, this may or may not be an issue to some for those who care it is best they research and find out whether they want to spend the extra $ to get closer to the originals, often someone will post here askinh about the authenticity of a particular builders guns and when told what level they were all Hell breaks loose from those who have purchased the builders standard less than PC offerings, when all that is transpireing is a discussion of gun history and what id avaiable from that perspective, and there is seldom incorrect information given from several veteran /knowledgable folks on this forum.

 

[Stophel]

I've seen and handled several TVM guns. They are well assembled guns, but they are, what I would call, "factory" guns.

Now, the "Early Virginia" thing...There ARE known VA rifles from the 1770's and some suspected rifles from the 1760's...anything before that, in my mind, is pure speculation. Thanks to Wallace Gusler, there are many known references to iron mounted "black guns" from VA during this time period (I will assume the hardware is charcoal blued..NOT browned...as would be the barrel), however, an example from the 1780's or earlier has, as yet, failed to materialize as far as I know, so just EXACTLY what one might look like you can't really know.

There are several very early American guns that are very German in styling or very English in styling and are, as such, quite generic, and could be from virtually anywhere. Doing a gun like this is always a "safe" way to go.

"Scools" are real, and there are reasons that a certain gun is assigned to a certain school. I can immediately see the difference between a John Shuler gun and one by Jacob Dickert. Some folks for whatever reason, cannot. But then, some folks do not seem to be able to tell the difference between an 1861 musket and a rifle by Johann Christoph Stockmar!

I try to build rifles as best I can, using period methods and materials as much as I am capable of, while trying to keep my prices down. I have a soft spot in my heart for poor people...because I am one! I do barn guns up to "reasonably fancy" guns.

 

[tg]

Very well put Chris, my point was that there are some standard traits that we have attatched to the early Virginia gun be they documentable or not and the deviation from these early characteristics was what I was refering to.A straight browned barrel, curved buttplate, Siler lock would not fit the theme of a 1760 gun from a PC perspecive, where as if one went with a swamped fire blued or natural barrel, earlier lock and furniture and stock architecture one could more easily argure the gun into an earlier period. and claim it was of a Virginia origin.

 

[marcstephen]

TG,

Sometimes I speak before I think!!! You make very good points!!! I am sorry I jumped out of the gate without thinking things through.

I am sorry, hopefully "no harm, no fowl"

Marc Findlay :sorry:

 

[tg]

No harm, no fowl, no apology needed, those who enjoy studying the originals try to share what info they have with others, whether they use the info or care about the historic perspective is their choice,but they will have the option of making an educated choice.

 

[marcstephen]

No harm, no fowl, no apology needed, those who enjoy studying the originals try to share what info they have with others, whether they use the info or care about the historic perspective is their choice,but they will have the option of making an educated choice.

:RO: :agree:


Marc Findlay

 

[Peter A Meyer]

As an Aussie, and new to "The Muzzleloading Forum", I don't know much about pre-Revolutionary American rifles. I have been reading the PC/custom discussion in this thread with interest however, and one thing is quite clear: one group is approaching the theme from the reenactment point of view, and the other from the shooting point of view.

Both have different criteria - the reenactors are after as high a level of period correctness as is possible, whereas the shooters are after a rifle that looks OK "from the road" (as an earlier post put it) with the major goal being a good shooter, and any PC being a bonus.

Coming from two different points of view, this sort of discussion/debate can go on for ever without resolution, but is nonetheless informative and great fun to read, so don't let me put you off!

As we say Down Under, "just my two bob's worth".

Pete.