tvm leman or virginia

[Dphar]

thinking about a tvm leman in a flint .62 i do lot of hiking in mountain type terrain for elk so it has to be easy to pack.any suggestions or pictures are a help thanks

A 62 is a a good choice for elk. But a Leman is not a good choice for a 62.
You will not enjoy shooting a Leman in 62 very much. 54 is bad enough.
They had squirrel rifle buttplates.
An original Hawken buttplate is bad enough over 54 caliber unless the rifle weighs 12 pounds or so.
I would STRONGLY recommend an EARLY American style rifle with a 2" wide butt or best would be an English style rifle.
The Jim Chambers' Mark Silver, the Marshall rifle or best a stock design such as found on Chambers' English rifle or in the Track of The Wolf original Purdey rifle plans. The basic stock design in full or 1/2 stock was in use from at least 1740-50 to the advent of the breechloader. They point very well and recoil is not a problem.
Once you get to a 62 caliber and start shooting loads that run 1600 fps or so its a different world than the "American" rifle. Very few American stock designs of the 18th and 19th centurys are suitable for heavy recoil.
A 54 caliber ball weighs 215-220 grains. The 62 will weigh about 350. A 69 weighs about 480. For Elk hunting you want 1600 fps from the large bores to give a flat trajectory to about 120-140 yards. I.E. a 120-140 yard "point blank". Its not possible to do this with a squirrel rifle buttplate and comb layout.
I have a rifle that shoots a 1 ounce ball, .662", I stocked it as a circa 1800-1815 English sporting rifle and I would not want it otherwise.
Choose the wrong buttstock design and the rifle will not see much use.
If you want something handy, build the rifle from the original Purdey plans in . 62 or .69. You will not regret it.
This is probably the best hunting rifle I own from pure ergonomics. But it does push the shooter around some with 1600 fps loads but is not noticeable when hunting. Its got the original Purdey plans buttstock lay out. The Purdey butt is virtually identical to the Manton since Purdey trained there.

These rifles were known in America and the Hawken has many features copied from rifles of this type.
But the Hawkens retained the "American" buttstock of the 1830s.

This rifle has Manton hardware and a Manton recessed breech lock from "The Rifle Shoppe"
If you can obtain a copy of Nigel George's "English Guns and Rifles" it has pictures of 3 English rifles of the 1790-1810 era.
The best English kit is the Chambers but you would have to check to see if a 62 caliber barrel is available.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

would it be fair to say that the crecent style on the leman would be similar to a gpr?the disadvantage i have is that i cannot hold or see these rifles except for pictures.would the extra powder and recoil of a .62 be worth it or would the .58 be a better choice?

Bigger is better for elk. 58 is a better choice than 54.
The 54, if a heavy bone like the upper leg bone is struck, can have penetration problems. The larger balls will do better in this case.
The 54 has killed many, many elk, but I considering as a decent minimum rather than the ideal. The American hunter of the 18th and 19th century was minimalist in many ways. The 54 was popular in the west since the 50 was considered minimum. AND the 54 used the same 1/2 ounce ball as the 58 caliber trade gun. But the English, many of them at least, considered the 54 little more than a small game rifle. There are reasons for this, such as many English rifles have very fast twists that may have limited velocity etc. But the English, for the most part, liked bigger bore sizes and the rifles generally had buttplate and stock designs like a fowler, ideal for higher recoil levels.
For most American rifles the 54 is about max for the buttstock design in a rifle under 11 pounds.

Sir William Drummiond Stewart claimed his 20 bore Manton killed more game on less powder and lead than the American rifles at the 1833(?) Rendezvous. He also stated that an Elk was easier to knock down than a Mule Deer.
Ruxton, another Englishman used a 58.

I find I can shoot my 50 caliber swivel breech better than I can the 16 bore rifle. At least more consistently. And when hunting accuracy matters.
If you want an early Kentucky I would not exceed 58, if you want a Leman I would not exceed 50.
Ball weights.
50-180 gr
54- 220 gr
58- 270 gr
62-350 gr
67-440 gr
69 480 gr.

Over 69 trying to get a long point blank range results in a lot of recoil in a hunting weight rifle.
The choice is up to the hunter.
MY ideal elk gun? If not the 16 bore rifle then the same basic rifle with a lighter barrel in 62. 9 pounds maybe. Would depend on the ability to find a
Would I shoot an elk with my 50 caliber if I found one and had it in hand, in a heart beat.
But I would be very careful to only shoot for the head or lungs. A shoulder shot with the 50-54? Very risky and could cause problems. Elk can carry a lot of lead a long ways if things go bad.

Dan

 

[Greenmtnboy]

You're asking about two extremely different stock designs. The Leman has a lot of drop, a narrow hooked butt and a sharp comb. It makes a nice offhand rifle but heavy loads can become pretty uncomfortable. The Virginia, with a broad flat butt and less drop will be more practical in the larger calibers since it will handle recoil better. I also think the Virginia makes a better hunting rifle since it handles more like a shotgun, snaps to the shoulder without having to fit a sharply hooked butt into just the right spot.
For a large caliber, heavy recoiling rifle I'd definitely prefer the early Virginia.

Joe is absoluty right.
I own many lemans and a Early Virginia by TVM.
My lemans are 45 to 54.
I compete with my 45 up to 80 grns with little discomfort and hunt with my two 54's.
one is 7/8 across the flats, 54 cal and I shoot 100 grns of ffg goex Express, fine for hunting but I woulden't want to shoot that load all the time all day, my other 54 is one inch across the flats and takes a heavy load better but you gotta carry that all day in the woods. My 7/8's is a dream to carry.
My Virginia is 7/8's 50 cal and I can shoot a hot load all I want with little discomfort I hunt with 100 grns and plink with anywhere from 60 to 80 grns.
The balance point is not as nice for all day carry as my Lemans.
What do I perfer?
Well I am a AMM member so a Leman would be my first choice for the fur trade era in fact I have a 50 cal flint coming from TVM as we speak.
I went with a 50 so I can shoot hot loads with out the pounding I get from my 54.
So if you want a fur trade era Leman stay with a 50 cal or smaller. a 50 cal is plenty big enough for elk. I know from much experance.
But if you gotta have a big cal than get Early Virginia and save your sholder.

If you want a sm cal compition gun, get a Leman they tuck into your sholder and hang like a dream!


50 cal Virgina 100 grns goex express = dead elk

54 cal Leman 7/8 100grns goex express = dead elk

45 cal Leman best off hand rifle I have ever shot

54 cal Leman one inch across the flats 110 grns ffg Goex Express = dead elk

All my Lemans

And one more point and I can't express this enough.
I personally would not go bigger than a 54 for western hunting when your ranges go from 20 yrds all the way out to 100 yrds, any further with open sites you are asking for a wounded animal because at 100 yrds your sites pritty much cover all of the vitals on a elk.
The reasoning for no bigger than a 54 is that I have to heat my 54 up to 1800 fps with 100 grns of Goex express to get three inches high at 50 yrds and point of aim at 100 yrds.
any thing less and I get a huge rainbow effect and with fixed sites you will get into trouble.
If your ranges are 75 yrds or less then hell get a cannon.
:haha:

 

[jbwilliams3]

Dan's advice is good.

 

[BrownBear]

Counting the flinter in the first pic, that's the most lefty Lemans I've ever seen in one place. Nice rifles and great taste in putting them together!

 

[Greenmtnboy]

thanks,
sorry about the percession pics on the flint forum,was just making a point on the differences.
I will be posting Leman flint results in a month or so after I get my new TVM and after next elk season.
:wink:

 

[Greenmtnboy]

would it be fair to say that the crecent style on the leman would be similar to a gpr?the disadvantage i have is that i cannot hold or see these rifles except for pictures.would the extra powder and recoil of a .62 be worth it or would the .58 be a better choice?

Bigger is better for elk. 58 is a better choice than 54.
The 54, if a heavy bone like the upper leg bone is struck, can have penetration problems. The larger balls will do better in this case.
The 54 has killed many, many elk, but I considering as a decent minimum rather than the ideal. The American hunter of the 18th and 19th century was minimalist in many ways. The 54 was popular in the west since the 50 was considered minimum. AND the 54 used the same 1/2 ounce ball as the 58 caliber trade gun. But the English, many of them at least, considered the 54 little more than a small game rifle. There are reasons for this, such as many English rifles have very fast twists that may have limited velocity etc. But the English, for the most part, liked bigger bore sizes and the rifles generally had buttplate and stock designs like a fowler, ideal for higher recoil levels.
For most American rifles the 54 is about max for the buttstock design in a rifle under 11 pounds.

Sir William Drummiond Stewart claimed his 20 bore Manton killed more game on less powder and lead than the American rifles at the 1833(?) Rendezvous. He also stated that an Elk was easier to knock down than a Mule Deer.
Ruxton, another Englishman used a 58.

I find I can shoot my 50 caliber swivel breech better than I can the 16 bore rifle. At least more consistently. And when hunting accuracy matters.
If you want an early Kentucky I would not exceed 58, if you want a Leman I would not exceed 50.
Ball weights.
50-180 gr
54- 220 gr
58- 270 gr
62-350 gr
67-440 gr
69 480 gr.

Over 69 trying to get a long point blank range results in a lot of recoil in a hunting weight rifle.
The choice is up to the hunter.
MY ideal elk gun? If not the 16 bore rifle then the same basic rifle with a lighter barrel in 62. 9 pounds maybe. Would depend on the ability to find a
Would I shoot an elk with my 50 caliber if I found one and had it in hand, in a heart beat.
But I would be very careful to only shoot for the head or lungs. A shoulder shot with the 50-54? Very risky and could cause problems. Elk can carry a lot of lead a long ways if things go bad.

Dan

I always enjoy your post Dan :bow:

Ya I revaluated my thinking on 50 cal vs 54 and after going back to 50 this fall for elk I realize that as long as it's behind the sholder the 50 cal is a little nicer for recoil and downranger ballistics.
:v

 

[hoochiepapa]

Dan's right, elk are tough!

 

[CoyoteJoe]

It really all depends on where, how and what you hunt as to what caliber is satisfactory. You will find many places where 150 yards would be about as close as you can get but one mile away you may be into timber where 50 yards is as far as you can see. As you go up in ball diameter and weight you also have to increase powder charge to maintain velocity and avoid a looping trajectory. Increasing both ball weight and powder charge is a double whammy in recoil, especially if you are also trying to keep rifle weight down for easy carry, then it becomes a triple whammy. We each have our own recoil threshold. For me, .58 caliber with 120 grains is my absolute max and I'd much rather shoot 100 grains in a .54 caliber.

 

[BrownBear]

That's probably the best summary of caliber choices I've ever read CoyoteJoe.

I'd make it a sticky on the site!!!! :hatsoff:

 

[Bob J]

i have talked to tvm and they would do a .62 in a leman .i dont have any expeirence with anything bigger than a .54 renegade so this is all helpful.i know they are 2 different types of stock designs just i like both. i just worry about carring a long barrel rifle for a extended period of time so thats why i thought of the leman design.

...how about a jaeger flintlock in .62 with a sling they were made for dragging up the side of a mountain.

That's what I was thinking: shorter barrel, stock designed for large caliber, AND HC :wink: