TVM Southern vs. Tennessee

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I see TVM offers a Southern and a Tennessee rifle. I don't see much difference between the two. Does anyone have any first-hand knowledge of what makes the Southern a Southern and a Tennessee a Tennessee? I wish TVM provided more photos like Track of the Wolf does.

 

[Hawken1980]

I’m interested as well.

 

[EC121]

Tennessee rifles were made in Tenn. They are a type of SMR. SMRs were made all over the South. Mostly in the mountains of the western Carolinas plus Tenn/KY., but the class covers the whole area and many variations from the large early colonial looking rifles to the later skinny, more typical SMR. Bill Ivey's book on the N. Carolina rifles is a good reference.

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

So southern mountain rifles are a broader class that is distinguished from Pennsylvania rifles? The Tennessee rifle would be to the SMR as, say, a Lancaster is to a Pennsylvania rifle?

Perhaps I should elaborate my question a little more. I am wondering what features about the Tennessee vs. the Southern are most notable? Is there a difference in stock architecture? I often don't pick up on such things until an expert points it out, then it's as obvious as the nose on my face. How about the tang?

It looks like the Tennessee has a more crescent butt. How about the width?

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

NO stop overthinking it lol.

TVM the company does not care about historical correctness and there is absolutely ZERO historical basis behind what they have decided to name their models, and if any ties do exist they are fleeting at best and most likely coincidental. There guns do not accurately reflect the proper architecture of period originals. They are modern made and not closely to any particular specimen or school.

That does not make them bad guns in itself, and I won’t elaborate on my experiences with them as they are documented elsewhere on this board. But I will mention you can get a better and more authentic gun for less money elsewhere. If you’re set on one (do your research first) then more power to you but don’t fall into the trap that they’re all (or the best) that you can afford as it isn’t true.

 

[hanshi]

I have both and the difference is easy to see. TVM guns are generic. In other words they are like the originals in most respects but they are not a copy of a particular rifle or a particular builder. These rifles were made all around the Appalachians by a myriad of builders and varied enormously from locale to locale and even within a builder's shop. Here are an SMR and a TN style SMR. They both are fantastic shooters and custom built to my lop and wishes.

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

"I have both and the difference is easy to see. "--Hanshi

OK Thanks Hanshi. But forgive my lunkheadedness, but I don't see any major differences. Locks look the same, trigger guard looks the same. I see a difference in the amount of crescent in the butt, and I think the stock is shaped a little different where the ramrod enters the fore-end. Oh and the Tennessee (lower one) has a lighter stain.

 

[Crow-Feather]

I have both and the difference is easy to see. TVM guns are generic. In other words they are like the originals in most respects but they are not a copy of a particular rifle or a particular builder. These rifles were made all around the Appalachians by a myriad of builders and varied enormously from locale to locale and even within a builder's shop. Here are an SMR and a TN style SMR. They both are fantastic shooters and custom built to my lop and wishes.

As far as beauty, I prefer the TVM Tennessee Poor Boy over the Southern Mountain Rifle. It appears slimmer and less "clunky". I have a Poor Boy Tennessee from another Company and it looks roughly the same as yours. I am planning on a TVM TPB flinter in 54 soon.

 

[smoothshooter]

NO stop overthinking it lol.

TVM the company does not care about historical correctness and there is absolutely ZERO historical basis behind what they have decided to name their models, and if any ties do exist they are fleeting at best and most likely coincidental. There guns do not accurately reflect the proper architecture of period originals. They are modern made and not closely to any particular specimen or school.

That does not make them bad guns in itself, and I won’t elaborate on my experiences with them as they are documented elsewhere on this board. But I will mention you can get a better and more authentic gun for less money elsewhere. If you’re set on one (do your research first) then more power to you but don’t fall into the trap that they’re all (or the best) that you can afford as it isn’t true.

Not that easy to get a gun from another gunmaker. Many of the older guys are dying off or are physically unable to do the work any more. A lot of the ones that are building guns are backed up for years.

 

[Ames]

Perhaps I should elaborate my question a little more. I am wondering what features about the Tennessee vs. the Southern are most notable? Is there a difference in stock architecture?

The SMR will have a larger drop at the heel, about an inch or inch and a quarter over a Tennessee. That should be easy to spot.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I think the terminology chosen by TVM is not inappropriate, but they are using the terms "Southern Mountain Rifle" and "Tennessee Rifle" to catalogue or distinguish two of their own standard patterns. The names are kind of arbitrary. I think the TVM Tennessee rifle may have more drop in the buttstock than their Southern Mountain Rifle. If you are a taller fellow with a longer neck, you might want the rifle with more drop. If you are shorter than average, you would probably want less drop. TVM can cut the stock to your length of pull (LOP) on any of their offerings.

If you specifically want a southern-styled rifle, either one would work. If you want to enjoy it to the maximum extent, ignore the name and get the one that fits you. TVM has created their own "standard" models in response to customer demand, and given them names loosely based on historical examples. I think their "Iron Mounted Pennsylvania" rifle is a nice-looking piece, but probably based on fantasy. The "Early Virginia" rifles offered by TVM and others have been discussed on various forums, and the general consensus is that this is a convenient modern name for a rifle that is only loosely based on actual historical examples. We have gotten pretty good at creating new names for old guns, e.g. "Plains Rifle," "Canoe Gun," etc. I think the current crop of "Early Virginia" and "Southern Mountain" rifles fall in the same category.

Would you buy a new car, based on what the manufacturer called it, or would you be more concerned with its features?

If you want a really authentic rifle, you may need to do some homework and request some custom options. Pay attention to the lock, in particular. You'll want a lock made in an English or US style for a typical southern rifle, and not a Germanic or French or "Golden Age" style. There are authentic, atypical examples out there, but we are talking about what you would normally expect to see.

The bottom line is that you will be best served if you do some research and decide what you want, including custom options (or not), and select a rifle that fits your needs. The name they call it is not important. As the Bard himself once wrote, "A rose by another name would smell as sweet..."

I would recommend that you call TVM directly to discuss the differences between their rifles. Chances are pretty good you'll speak with a remarkably knowledgeable lady who will answer every one of your questions with a wonderful and thoroughly authentic Mississippi accent.

Notchy Bob

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Ok. The drop at the heel seems noticeable . . .once someone points it out. The photographs are not of the two guns next to each other, plus the picture are taken from diffrrent perspectives which doesn't bring out the differemces in stock architecture.

How wide are the buttplates?

 

[Flintleather]

I think the terminology chosen by TVM is not inappropriate, but they are using the terms "Southern Mountain Rifle" and "Tennessee Rifle" to catalogue or distinguish two of their own standard patterns. The names are kind of arbitrary. I think the TVM Tennessee rifle may have more drop in the buttstock than their Southern Mountain Rifle. If you are a taller fellow with a longer neck, you might want the rifle with more drop. If you are shorter than average, you would probably want less drop. TVM can cut the stock to your length of pull (LOP) on any of their offerings.

If you specifically want a southern-styled rifle, either one would work. If you want to enjoy it to the maximum extent, ignore the name and get the one that fits you. TVM has created their own "standard" models in response to customer demand, and given them names loosely based on historical examples. I think their "Iron Mounted Pennsylvania" rifle is a nice-looking piece, but probably based on fantasy. The "Early Virginia" rifles offered by TVM and others have been discussed on various forums, and the general consensus is that this is a convenient modern name for a rifle that is only loosely based on actual historical examples. We have gotten pretty good at creating new names for old guns, e.g. "Plains Rifle," "Canoe Gun," etc. I think the current crop of "Early Virginia" and "Southern Mountain" rifles fall in the same category.

Would you buy a new car, based on what the manufacturer called it, or would you be more concerned with its features?

If you want a really authentic rifle, you may need to do some homework and request some custom options. Pay attention to the lock, in particular. You'll want a lock made in an English or US style for a typical southern rifle, and not a Germanic or French or "Golden Age" style. There are authentic, atypical examples out there, but we are talking about what you would normally expect to see.

The bottom line is that you will be best served if you do some research and decide what you want, including custom options (or not), and select a rifle that fits your needs. The name they call it is not important. As the Bard himself once wrote, "A rose by another name would smell as sweet..."

I would recommend that you call TVM directly to discuss the differences between their rifles. Chances are pretty good you'll speak with a remarkably knowledgeable lady who will answer every one of your questions with a wonderful and thoroughly authentic Mississippi accent.

Notchy Bob

I believe “Melanie” is from Louisiana.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I believe “Melanie” is from Louisiana. ☺

Thanks for that!

I spoke with Miss Toni when I called, but that was several years ago.

Notchy Bob

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Would you buy a new car, based on what the manufacturer called it, or would you be more concerned with its features?

. . .

The bottom line is that you will be best served if you do some research and decide what you want, including custom options (or not), and select a rifle that fits your needs. The name they call it is not important. As the Bard himself once wrote, "A rose by another name would smell as sweet..."

Notchy Bob

Exactly. If you read my posts - you'll notice I've been trying my darndest to steer the conversation towards the actual features. But the responses keep drifting towards the authenticity of the styles TVM imagines they represent. I don't care about that, I am more interested in the features and what that translates into when you actually aim and pull the trigger.

I guess I will have to give TVM a call.

 

[Snydly]

No matter your opinion of the differences... Let's not run down anyone's guns or any builder. You don't like some gun manufacturer,,, keep it to yourself.

 

[Ames]

Back to the butt plates. My SMR is 1 3/8", my Tenn. is 1 1/4".
If you go to the pages of Pecatonica they have a lot of specs that may make an interesting read for you to see the differences of 3 or 4 of the southern guns. I know it's not TVM but specs side by side can help explain the differences.

 

[hanshi]

Ames is correct on the butt plate width on the two rifles. I've never actually measured them but they are thin. Of all the rifles I own those two are the only ones that have to be padded in order to be held securely in my gun cleaning holder.

 

[Zonie]

For what it's worth, **** Greensides, owner of Pecatonica River Long Rifle Supply Company has this to say about the Southern Mountain and the Tennessee Mountain rifle he sells kits for.

SOUTHERN MOUNTAIN RIFLE
"Rifles built in Eastern Tennessee before about 1815, were the work of gunsmiths who migrated to that area from neighboring and more settled states. These gunsmiths brought the designs and procedures they had learned in the East and set to work turning out guns that met local needs using the materials provided by the land around them.
Some collectors classify these rifles as "Southern Kentuckies" although Tennessee was a part of North Carolina until it became a state in 1796.

One important difference between the "Kentucky" and the "Tennessee" was the use of iron for fittings, instead of brass. Iron was abundant in the region. The metals needed for brass were not successfully mined until the turn of the 19th Century. Silver and pewter were often used for mountings in these rifles. The silver usually came from coins circulated during this period. Walnut and maple were the favorite woods for stocks, but other woods including cherry and ash were sometimes used.

These early guns often utilized the more simple "banana style" patchbox, long barrels, wide buttplates and wide trigger guards. A very few may have included relief carving. Long tangs were common.

The general lines of these rifles are not unlike their Kentucky cousins, although the rifle is usually less ornamented and is not carved. It has a rugged simplicity and attractiveness."

DROP AT HEEL: 4 1/4"
BUTT: 1 5/8" X 5 1/4"
COMB = SMOOTH GENTLE CURVE
BELLY = SMOOTH GENTLE CURVE

"TENNESSEE MOUNTAIN RIFLE
The Tennessee Mountain rifle is truly one of the guns that won the West. These rifles were produced in the area of the Southern Mountains as settlements moved west and further away from the populated areas of the east. The rifle-makers in these areas were generally far removed from their sources of supply and so many of the "extras" (such as the brass patchbox) were eliminated and they produced rifles of classic simplicity, rugged and accurate.
These mountain rifles usually had iron fittings and some simply had a hole drilled in the butt stock for patching grease. We have seen these rifles with fittings made from horn and antler and they are an interesting contrast to their more splendid cousin - the Kentucky rifle.

Many of these rifles found their way into the hands of the people who settled the mountains and were used to harvest the hogs that had been running wild. They still are called "hog rifles" in some parts of the Smoky Mountains today. Other rifles of this type went to trappers, traders and hunters. The simplicity of the lines, as well as the ruggedness of the rifle, made the Tennessee Mountain rifle a favorite.

This gun will look particularly good if metal parts are browned and a dark stain is used for the stock. A wood or "banana style" iron patchbox can be found on some of the early models. Cowhorn or antler will provide just a touch of authentic color and can be used for an inlay or two, or shaped for the rifle's nosecap."

DROP AT HEEL: 3 1/2"
BUTT" 1 1/2" X 4 1/4"
COMB = STRAIGHT
BELLY OF STOCK = STRAIGHT
The on line catalog also shows a Tennessee Classic Rifle and says,

TENNESSEE CLASSIC RIFLE
"Our Tennessee Classic fullstock is a long rifle inspired by the creativeness of the mountain folks from the mountain regions of North Carolina and Tennessee. They are functional guns without fancy inlays or carving. Iron was the predominant metal used as brass was in short supply in the hills of Tennessee. Most parts were hand forged with the exception of the locks which were generally imported.
A very comfortable gun to shot with more drop than the Tennessee Mountain, but less than the Southern Mountain. The buttstock has a straight comb and well defined cheek piece.

Maple and walnut were the most frequently used woods btt cherry and ash were also seen."

DROP AT HEEL: 4"
BUTT: 1 1/2" X 4 3/4"
COMB = STRAIGHT
BELLY OF STOCK = STRAIGHT