How do TVM kits compare to Kibler kits?
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TVM vs Kibler
- Thread starter Gvilleddie
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If you want to learn something as to building a LR, the TVM among many parts sets will do this. The Kibler, although it will show how a LR, both the Colonial and SMR should look, it doesn't require a whole lot of skill to complete...but you do end up w/ an excellent LR. .....Fred
Crow-Feather
32 Cal.
Both sell in the white rifles. TVM sells rifles with both ignition systems, Kibler sells flintlocks only last time that I checked. You really have to check out both companies if you are looking for a rifle. They both offer different time periods etc. in my limited knowledge.
hanshi
Cannon
Kibler would be the easiest kit and likely a bit more authentic. TVM's hobby kit comes close in ease of building but Kibler can't be beat in this respect.
I’m considering the TVM Basic Southern Rifle. Should this rifle have steel or brass hardware?
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Hi,
If you want a southern mountain rifle go with Kibler's southern mountain rifle. There is no comparison with respect to quality, styling, historical consistency, and ease of construction. Go to Kibler's website (Southern Mountain Rifle Kit) and look at it and then compare. Nothing TVM offers comes close.
dave
If you want a southern mountain rifle go with Kibler's southern mountain rifle. There is no comparison with respect to quality, styling, historical consistency, and ease of construction. Go to Kibler's website (Southern Mountain Rifle Kit) and look at it and then compare. Nothing TVM offers comes close.
dave
Will do. Thanks, E..
Capt. Jas.
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There is no way to compare. Kibler rifles prevail.
Sidney Smith
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If you like the challenge of inletting, shaping, sanding, finishing, etc, go with the TVM. If you want a rifle that takes minimal time and skill to assemble, go with the Kibler.
Without writing a page full of info for a full review, the Kibler’s are not like snapping together a set of lego’s, as I saw someone post on another forum. I am almost done with a southern mountain rifle for a friend. I’m easily 15 hours into this. While I’m not a professional builder, just a professional putterer, it’s takes time to do it correctly. The kits are meticulously machined and just a little final fitting and scraping is required to assemble. But, then you have to finish the wood and metal. I’ve had trouble with the browning solution and getting it to cover consistently. It could very well be my technique. Also, there are very slight machining marks in the wood that show up much batter when it’s too late, like after the tannic acid and stain are applied. Oops, do over! And they are machined so close to finished shape and size, you don’t have a lot of wiggle room when sanding (that’s means don’t start with heavy grit paper). I used some 320 and more 600, as well as a scraper. The finished product is incredible.
AND, THE COMPANY IS GREAT TO INTERACT WITH. Talked to Mr Kibler himself on one phone call. How often can you call someplace with a question and they say “ hold on, I’ll put Jim on the phone.” ….. wait, I get to pose my question to the guy who started the company! I had a too short ramrod hole, he sent me the drill bit and instructions to finish, and told me to keep the drill bit. Good people.
None of this is meant as a negative toward TVM. I think it depends on your skill level, patience, and what you want to put into it. I’m building the Kibler for my friend because he doesn’t have the patience.
AND, THE COMPANY IS GREAT TO INTERACT WITH. Talked to Mr Kibler himself on one phone call. How often can you call someplace with a question and they say “ hold on, I’ll put Jim on the phone.” ….. wait, I get to pose my question to the guy who started the company! I had a too short ramrod hole, he sent me the drill bit and instructions to finish, and told me to keep the drill bit. Good people.
None of this is meant as a negative toward TVM. I think it depends on your skill level, patience, and what you want to put into it. I’m building the Kibler for my friend because he doesn’t have the patience.
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Hi,
Perhaps it helps to clarify a few things. TVM is an "old school" 20th century maker. They have been in business for a long time and developed their products and methods of manufacture within the price points they selected. They use good parts, mostly, and adapt several generic stock styles to make different model guns, often by just swapping out hardware to change models. They use hand operated duplicating machines to cut the stock profiles and also offer semi-custom services to add or modify their products with options selected by the customer. They are not particularly careful about historically correct components or styles but probably most of their customers don't really care about that.
What makes Jim Kibler different is he is a 21st century maker and invested thousands of dollars in CNC assisted machinery and state of the art 3-D shapers. He can produce stocks with a much, much higher degree of precision and refinement than TVM or anyone else. In the process of developing his business, he ran into problems where his stocks were so much more precisely inlet and shaped than the metal hardware he was using so he had to do a lot of fitting the less precise parts to his precise stocks. That included the barrels and locks. His solution was to make those components himself so they could be machined originally to his tolerances. So now he profiles his own barrels, makes his own CNC machined locks and parts, and creates all the wax models for his other cast hardware. This means several things. He does not make generic stocks that are used for multiple models. He designs them individually for each model and as a result can keep them historically correct and requiring little or no shaping by the customer. The trade-off is a great reduction in flexibility for one-off custom modifications. You simply don't have enough excess wood left on the stocks to change them much so the vast majority of Kibler kits will always be recognizable as Jim Kibler guns. Fortunately, because Jim is one of the world's best custom muzzleloader makers, his designs are as elegant and beautiful as you could want so most folks won't mind that lack of flexibility. With regard to his Southern Mountain rifle kit, Jim chose a real winner as his historical model for the gun. In my opinion, I don't think there is a more beautiful Southern rifle design in existence. Personally, I would not try making any changes to that gun because I simply could not make it better in any detail. However, you can witness my efforts to make a Kibler Colonial rifle a bit more my own here:
Kibler kit assembly and carving
It is not too easy.
dave
Perhaps it helps to clarify a few things. TVM is an "old school" 20th century maker. They have been in business for a long time and developed their products and methods of manufacture within the price points they selected. They use good parts, mostly, and adapt several generic stock styles to make different model guns, often by just swapping out hardware to change models. They use hand operated duplicating machines to cut the stock profiles and also offer semi-custom services to add or modify their products with options selected by the customer. They are not particularly careful about historically correct components or styles but probably most of their customers don't really care about that.
What makes Jim Kibler different is he is a 21st century maker and invested thousands of dollars in CNC assisted machinery and state of the art 3-D shapers. He can produce stocks with a much, much higher degree of precision and refinement than TVM or anyone else. In the process of developing his business, he ran into problems where his stocks were so much more precisely inlet and shaped than the metal hardware he was using so he had to do a lot of fitting the less precise parts to his precise stocks. That included the barrels and locks. His solution was to make those components himself so they could be machined originally to his tolerances. So now he profiles his own barrels, makes his own CNC machined locks and parts, and creates all the wax models for his other cast hardware. This means several things. He does not make generic stocks that are used for multiple models. He designs them individually for each model and as a result can keep them historically correct and requiring little or no shaping by the customer. The trade-off is a great reduction in flexibility for one-off custom modifications. You simply don't have enough excess wood left on the stocks to change them much so the vast majority of Kibler kits will always be recognizable as Jim Kibler guns. Fortunately, because Jim is one of the world's best custom muzzleloader makers, his designs are as elegant and beautiful as you could want so most folks won't mind that lack of flexibility. With regard to his Southern Mountain rifle kit, Jim chose a real winner as his historical model for the gun. In my opinion, I don't think there is a more beautiful Southern rifle design in existence. Personally, I would not try making any changes to that gun because I simply could not make it better in any detail. However, you can witness my efforts to make a Kibler Colonial rifle a bit more my own here:
Kibler kit assembly and carving
It is not too easy.
dave
Sidney Smith
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It took me probably 15 hours just to inlet the lock on my last build. Compared against a Kibler, the Kibler IS a Lego kit. I've heard it said a Kibler can be completely finished in maybe 40 hours. That may be stretching it I don't know. What I do know is it took me at least 150 hours to build my squirrel gun.
I'm not knocking the Kibler guns in any way, but comparing them against a kit where it's up to the builder/assembler, however you want to call it, they do go together very quickly.
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Brokennock
Cannon
I have not built either, let me be clear in that.
But, I do read a lot of what the better builders post here and a lot of discussions about different manufacturers guns. I do own a TVM gun.
I see people saying that the TVM kit will give the "builder," more opportunities to learn about inletting and some shaping while the Kibler is mostly a project of refinement and finishing, a "snap together model," (somehow I don't think this is a fair description) and seems to imply this makes the TVM somehow better.
If one has never built a rifle, kit or otherwise, wouldn't it be better to do something where one knows everything is done right, learn how it is all supposed to be?
Also, on detail quality, Kibler seems to win here hands down. Better quality parts and craftsmanship. Is the TVM a good gun? Yes. Mine shoots well, functions well. But is heavy and a little bulky for its size. A good example, seems a minor detail but can ultimately make a big difference in the final gun....
the web between barrel and ramrod. It is generally too thick on the TVM. Look at picture of both as finished guns. Most of the Kibler guns will have the ramrod with no gap between rod tip and muzzle cap.
TVM?
That's a .60 jag on that rod.....
Also, probably not going to find a bunch of acraglass on the Kibler. Mine has quite a bit, especially in the area of where lock inletting and barrel channel and ramrod whole meet.
In essence my impression is that your final product will (or should/has potential to be) be much better with the Kibler.
But, I do read a lot of what the better builders post here and a lot of discussions about different manufacturers guns. I do own a TVM gun.
I see people saying that the TVM kit will give the "builder," more opportunities to learn about inletting and some shaping while the Kibler is mostly a project of refinement and finishing, a "snap together model," (somehow I don't think this is a fair description) and seems to imply this makes the TVM somehow better.
If one has never built a rifle, kit or otherwise, wouldn't it be better to do something where one knows everything is done right, learn how it is all supposed to be?
Also, on detail quality, Kibler seems to win here hands down. Better quality parts and craftsmanship. Is the TVM a good gun? Yes. Mine shoots well, functions well. But is heavy and a little bulky for its size. A good example, seems a minor detail but can ultimately make a big difference in the final gun....
the web between barrel and ramrod. It is generally too thick on the TVM. Look at picture of both as finished guns. Most of the Kibler guns will have the ramrod with no gap between rod tip and muzzle cap.
TVM?
That's a .60 jag on that rod.....
Also, probably not going to find a bunch of acraglass on the Kibler. Mine has quite a bit, especially in the area of where lock inletting and barrel channel and ramrod whole meet.
In essence my impression is that your final product will (or should/has potential to be) be much better with the Kibler.
Thanks for all the input.
Sidney Smith
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There is no doubt that the Kibler is definitely a quality firearm. Probably one of the best. It all boils down again to whether you want to have to actually inlet parts etc vs simply shaving a little wood here and there, then finish the stock, barrel what have you.
I'm going to go ahead and call the Kibler a 10% gun.By that I mean you take another kit and when you've built 90% of it, you're at the same point as you'd be opening the box on the Kibler.
I'm going to go ahead and call the Kibler a 10% gun.By that I mean you take another kit and when you've built 90% of it, you're at the same point as you'd be opening the box on the Kibler.
Thanks for all the nice comments. I'd like to try to clarify a bit further... It's not just about how far our kits are finished, it's also about how well they are finished. This refers to design in addition to fit and finish. As some have mentioned, there is a big gap between what we offer and others. There really isn't any comparison. This isn't me being a salesman, it's simply stating the facts.
If I just wanted a LR evidently like many others, a Kibler would be my choice. ....but how much does one learn about building? The Kibler offerings are made using space age technology which according to some is far from being historical. I've built a few LRs and to tell the truth , none were perfect {the "flaws" were well hidden}.....but the Kiblers are the next thing to perfection.
I'm wondering because I don't know if Kibler's market {not large} saturation has an impact on the full time builders or those builders who perhaps sell 1-3 MLers a year? I no longer am able because of very bad eyesight, to make LRs mainly from a blank or rarely a parts set but could assemble a Kibler in good fashion...thought about doing this, but I really don't need another gun.
On the flip side, this is a free enterprising country and if someone is successful in making and marketing LRs that appeal to many people, so be it....but there are ramifications as mentioned above. Feel no sympathy for the makers of "factory MLers" .....their products have lacked quality and design for years w/ no attempts to improve their products.
So.....time will tell if the advent of the Kibler LRs is good or not so good for some aspects of MLing. ......Fred
I'm wondering because I don't know if Kibler's market {not large} saturation has an impact on the full time builders or those builders who perhaps sell 1-3 MLers a year? I no longer am able because of very bad eyesight, to make LRs mainly from a blank or rarely a parts set but could assemble a Kibler in good fashion...thought about doing this, but I really don't need another gun.
On the flip side, this is a free enterprising country and if someone is successful in making and marketing LRs that appeal to many people, so be it....but there are ramifications as mentioned above. Feel no sympathy for the makers of "factory MLers" .....their products have lacked quality and design for years w/ no attempts to improve their products.
So.....time will tell if the advent of the Kibler LRs is good or not so good for some aspects of MLing. ......Fred
hanshi
Cannon
If I could have any rifle kit, any, it would be the Kibler SMR. I would equally love to have the colonial kit and would take whichever one I could get. My only problem with the colonial is that such a rifle does demand a bit of carving and engraving to look right, neither of which I can do. The only real hurdle for me concerning the rifles is the longer than ideal (for me) lop. 12.5" is ideal and I have rifles with that lop plus ones that are 13" and both work very well. The Colonial and SMR have, IIRC, 13 plus; not a deal breaker at all but still pushing the limit in my case. I agree that they are in a class by themselves; and so far nothing else can come close.
Sidney Smith
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From a quality of parts standpoint, the Kibler may certainly be at the top of the pile. However from a building/finishing standpoint, the Kibler is not too far from a Traditions gun kit. Now I'm not saying that from a derogatory position, but from an amount of work needed to finish a Kibler, they are probably the same. That's fine for someone who wants a fine rifle in the end. But, the person who wants to challenge themselves to a more hands on approach to completing a rifle, they're not going learn anything putting the Kibler together.
I watched a video on YouTube last night from a guy who was unboxing his new Kibler kit. This man admitted to being too afraid of doing dove tails, drilling barrel pin holes, and other processes in building muzzleloaders. For a guy like that, the Kibler IS perfect. For a guy like me who likes to push myself to learn, and isn't afraid of making mistakes in order to learn, a Kibler is not the kit I'd ever want to try. I like doing dovetails, pinning barrels and all the other challenges. What is a Kibler going to teach me? Seriously, nothing. Why would I want that?
I watched a video on YouTube last night from a guy who was unboxing his new Kibler kit. This man admitted to being too afraid of doing dove tails, drilling barrel pin holes, and other processes in building muzzleloaders. For a guy like that, the Kibler IS perfect. For a guy like me who likes to push myself to learn, and isn't afraid of making mistakes in order to learn, a Kibler is not the kit I'd ever want to try. I like doing dovetails, pinning barrels and all the other challenges. What is a Kibler going to teach me? Seriously, nothing. Why would I want that?
One thing to keep in mind, is that a Kibler will teach you what "good" and "right" is. I've been around this stuff a long time and the VAST majority of people don't grasp this very well. Also, you won't have a bunch of problems from the manufacturer to fix. Something that is all too common.
