Type D

[tg]

Cool...That looks a lot cheaper than the TOW price,if it is the same book, I will double check before buying, Thanks

 

[Rifleman1776]

I think the Caywood guns are pretty low on the authenticity list with rather small lock, short barel 41", good point on the furniture Alex, I see where many claim a type C as a Fin and a type D as an Ordinare, I would like to see them as early French Fusil and late FF or something less confusing, more accurate for the average buyer,I saw one list that showed quite a few "types" like FDC ordinare and FDT fin, I think it was by Kit Ravensheare (SP), I have read his stuff and he seems to have had a fair handle on these guns given what was available in his day. I am looking forward to seeing the new book, who has it available now?

Even though I have known the Caywoods many years and think they are great people, personally, I wouldn't try to debate them on your 'authenticity' issue. Individually, or as a team they can out talk you so long the filling in your teeth will melt before you can get a word in. They believe in what they believe in (touchhole liners, barrel steel, rifling twist, and more) and no one will change their minds. As far as the lock size is concerned, their lock maker is in house and can make whatever the buyer wants. The locks are priced separately for most of their guns.

 

[tg]

", I wouldn't try to debate them on your 'authenticity' issue."

There would really be no debate, one only has to look at the original French guns, archeological evidence and period records to see the barrels are much to short and the locks quite smaller than the norm , I do not think they or most others really go for a close match historicaly with the offering of Maple stock wood and browned barrels amoung other things, this is typical with nearly all but a few builders who only make a few guns a year,most gun suppliers are in between the production guns and the single man shops who emand and get $2500 and up per gun with great attention to historical detail Alex and Mike are in the latter group as I see it, the vast majority or gu buyers would not know the differnce between the second and last type of gun anyway so it is a moot point, though with the communication capability of the internet more and more are asking for guns that more closely reflect the way the originals looked, some builders accomadate this and others give somewhat questionable lessons on gun history relying on the fact that thye have built guns for a long time to cause people to believe what they suggest as to the authenticity of their product, I think the bar will be raise more and more with the passing of time, and again there is nothing wrong with not closely following the originals as we know them as not all are that concerned about this aspect, it is just best to represent the product in a realistic manner, and most do not make hard fast claims as to the "authenticity" of their stuff and most offer a person the option to order a specific style or type of item that differs from their "standard" offering and does provide one the chance to do the research themselves and have a pretty good example of a gun from the past built.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Things do change as does perception of what is 'correct'. There was a time when one could not correctly portray a Mountain Man or 'primitive' unless you carried a percussion Hawken rifle. Now, the rage is smoothies, fusils, trade, etc. And, interestingly, many (most?) clubs and events still do no schedule matches for the smoothie flintrockers.

 

[tg]

Very true and with the high cost of retooling for loner barrels of a correct profile for differnent guns and the same for locks and stocks the industry will be very slow in complying to any closer representations of the guns from the past which is understandable, but at this time in the hobby it just does not seem right to me for a builder to advertise a types C as a Fin and a type D as an Ordinare and to say that Maple was one of the norms for French stock wood, and this is present with some who will charge $2500-$3000 for the finished gun, this is whay it is so important for one who wants the closer version to the originals to really do some homework rather than blindly follow the builders lead, there are exceptions of course and we have several here but many who are newer to the game would not know one from the other, again no flame, just some observations which would not have even been made had I not heard/read quite a bit about some of the originals which are at times missrepresented considerably by the new offerings. They will all take game and offer years of service which is the only real goal for most.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I think the Caywood guns are pretty low on the authenticity list with rather small lock, short barel 41", good point on the furniture Alex, I see where many claim a type C as a Fin and a type D as an Ordinare, I would like to see them as early French Fusil and late FF or something less confusing, more accurate for the average buyer,I saw one list that showed quite a few "types" like FDC ordinare and FDT fin, I think it was by Kit Ravensheare (SP), I have read his stuff and he seems to have had a fair handle on these guns given what was available in his day. I am looking forward to seeing the new book, who has it available now?

Even though I have known the Caywoods many years and think they are great people, personally, I wouldn't try to debate them on your 'authenticity' issue. Individually, or as a team they can out talk you so long the filling in your teeth will melt before you can get a word in. They believe in what they believe in (touchhole liners, barrel steel, rifling twist, and more) and no one will change their minds. As far as the lock size is concerned, their lock maker is in house and can make whatever the buyer wants. The locks are priced separately for most of their guns.

There isn't going to be any more locks from Caywood as I have heard rumors the Kiwi has been canned. Also, barrel length is set by machinery capability. Caywood can't build the correct length barrel as his machinery can't handle it, nothing to do with historical accuracy.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Interesting.
Kiwi gone? Wonder what happened, that was a long time relationship.
I'll catch up on the news at next Berryville shoot.

 

[tg]

Yeah, I was not implying that they were thinking that the barrels were "correct" just that they were not so and it ios not mentioned anywhere, then we come to the issue of implying something by omission of fact, which may be the biggest practice in the ML world

 

[Rifleman1776]

There isn't going to be any more locks from Caywood as I have heard rumors the Kiwi has been canned.

Today I confirmed Kiwi is no longer with Danny. Not a pretty story why. Not Kiwi's fault.

 

[Mike Brooks]

There isn't going to be any more locks from Caywood as I have heard rumors the Kiwi has been canned.

Today I confirmed Kiwi is no longer with Danny. Not a pretty story why. Not Kiwi's fault.

I don't know any details myself, but I'm sure the Kiwi is holding the crappy end of the stick considering who he was working for.

 

[tg]

Would that be a type D or C stick?

 

[Mike Brooks]

Probably a Davey Crockett stick. :wink:

 

[RUSELLLEEDORAN]

It seems this thread has become one of personal issues and opinions relating to the character of men. It says somewhere that the first man to plead his case always seems right until another man comes and examines him.

I don't know Danny really well, but I'm happy with the fowler he made me. I will say Danny has a different story about who got which end of the stick.

Wouldn't we be better to be a little more gracious when we do not have all the facts and stick to the main point of the thread?

Fuzzy

 

[alex efremenko]

Now you want EVERYONE to change.This board would be quiet as a tomb them :rotf:
[Could not find a sarcasm emoticon]

 

[tg]

"Wouldn't we be better to be a little more gracious when we do not have all the facts and stick to the main point of the thread'

I don't kmow, that sounds kinda....fuzzy