Underhammer Issue…need help

[TommyKid]

I took possession of a Hopkins & Allen .58 caliber underhammer rifle today. Unfortunately, it was damaged during shipping. The two items of damage I can deal with…a cracked stock and broken rear sight. The other item I don’t believe was due to shipping damage, but I have no evidence to prove otherwise. I’m not going to get into the issues with the seller, but the bottom line is I’m on my own. I’m told the rifle was in perfect condition when shipped. The issue I’m referring to is a loose barrel. I was able to unthread the barrel with zero effort. When tightened, the barrel and receiver do not line up properly. I’m not very familiar with what the breech plug should look like, but it appears stripped. Oddly, the amount of threads in the barrel appear similar to what’s on the breech plug. I’m not sure why the barrel doesn’t align when tightened and not sure how to remedy this situation. I would love to make lemonade out of lemons and I hope someone can guide me through this. Thanks, Tom

 

[bpd303]

The threads do not appear to be stripped in the barrel or breech plug. If I remember they were made to be disassembled without tools. How much torque did it take to tighten it in the third & fourth pictures where it shows to be misaligned? If it is just snug then it probably needs a shim stock washer to align it. I had a H&A underhammer in 45 cal. and just hand tight aligned it perfectly.
Someone with more experience with them may have a different idea.

 

[2 shots]

does not look right through my eyes. dont see any way that could have happened in shipping... sure look stripped [ galled] to me

 

[DrLaw]

IIRC, the barrel should have been held in by set screws. That could account for the apparent misalignment of the barrel.

The doc is out now.

 

[2 shots]

IIRC, the barrel should have been held in by set screws. That could account for the apparent misalignment of the barrel.

The doc is out now.

set screws or a tapered pin. is that barrel marked HOPKINS AND ALLEN??

 

[TommyKid]

set screws or a tapered pin. is that barrel marked HOPKINS AND ALLEN??

Yes, the barrel is marked Hopkins & Allen.

 

[Sam squanch]

Get that re breeched . It’s not right.

 

[TommyKid]

Get that re breeched . It’s not right.

I haven’t been able to find a breech plug for this one, unfortunately.

 

[hawkeye2]

The newer underhammer actions have set screws, the original H&A barrels were retained by a tapered pin going from right to left. The breech plugs are quite basic and can easily be made from a bolt with the right threads for the barrel. I would suggest you take the breech plug and action to a machinist and ask his opinion. He could make a new breech plug if needed and it wouldn't be too expensive. I'm not aware of H&A using a breech plug screwed into the action like that and it's possible someone made that modification later.
Edit, my mistake; I see the breech plug still attached to the action and the barrel unscrewed (unbreeched).

 

[2 shots]

in the first picture is that a set screw or a pin in receiver?

 

[hawkeye2]

Yes that's the pin that holds the barrel to the action. The barrel should not be unscrewed but rather the pin should be driven out (left to right) to remove the barrel. For some reason the breech plug was left in the action and the barrel unscrewed from it.

 

[stubshaft]

It looks like someone milled interrupted threads in the barrel to make a takedown rifle and did not finish the project. Needless to say, that is NOT what I would consider as "perfect" condition and is NOT the result of a shipping issue.

 

[TommyKid]

Yes that's the pin that holds the barrel to the action. The barrel should not be unscrewed but rather the pin should be driven out (left to right) to remove the barrel. For some reason the breech plug was left in the action and the barrel unscrewed from

So, let’s say I get a new breech plug. Is there a concern that the barrel threads won’t be the same amount (length wise) as the new breech? Will the barrel need to be rethreaded to match the breech plug?
I’m still unsure why the barrel doesn’t line up when tightened. Is there not enough thread there to warrant a shim of sorts to make things line up?

 

[longcruise]

It looks like someone removed the threads intentionally. It looks like they wanted the BP to seat on the extent of the barrel threads but still extend into the barrel. Possibly because the nipple was too far forward of the extent of the barrel threading. That could have been causing the ball to seat deeper than the nipple flash entry to the barrel when there wasn't enough powder to have the ball seated down barrel from the nipple. (I know, the more i type the muddier this gets)

Like said, the pin should hold the BP in a consistently aligned and correct position. The barrel should NEVER be removed.

The fix? I'm not an expert but I think it needs to be re breached. If the face of the breech plug is indeed not deep enough in the barrel the barrel needs to be threaded deeper before the new breech plug is installed. The new breech plug should probably have threads about as long as the total length that the old plug extended into the barrel.

Probably should get a Smith on the repair. Maybe some compensation from the seller? Maybe the seller should take it back?

 

[TommyKid]

It looks like someone removed the threads intentionally. It looks like they wanted the BP to seat on the extent of the barrel threads but still extend into the barrel. Possibly because the nipple was too far forward of the extent of the barrel threading. That could have been causing the ball to seat deeper than the nipple flash entry to the barrel when there wasn't enough powder to have the ball seated down barrel from the nipple. (I know, the more i type the muddier this gets)

Like said, the pin should hold the BP in a consistently aligned and correct position. The barrel should NEVER be removed.

The fix? I'm not an expert but I think it needs to be re breached. If the face of the breech plug is indeed not deep enough in the barrel the barrel needs to be threaded deeper before the new breech plug is installed. The new breech plug should probably have threads about as long as the total length that the old plug extended into the barrel.

Probably should get a Smith on the repair. Maybe some compensation from the seller? Maybe the seller should take it back?

I asked for a refund and to return the rifle and the seller basically refused. Since there was shipping damage, the seller thinks this issue is from that. They are dead set that the rifle did not have a loose barrel before it was shipped and everything was fine. I think it’s very obvious that this is not from shipping. Since it was insured, the seller requested I file a claim for the cracked stock and broken sight (obvious shipping damage as seen from the listing pics). I’ll revisit this again with them in light of all the responses I’ve gotten, but I’m not hopeful.

 

[TommyKid]

Yes that's the pin that holds the barrel to the action. The barrel should not be unscrewed but rather the pin should be driven out (left to right) to remove the barrel. For some reason the breech plug was left in the action and the barrel unscrewed from it.

Good luck getting the pin out as well. It’s clear one end is tapered, but it will not budge. I’ve applied Kroil and will play the waiting game.

 

[longcruise]

Since it was insured, the seller requested I file a claim for the cracked stock and broken sight (obvious shipping damage as seen from the listing pics)

If it was shipped USPS only the shipper can file a claim. At least that's what I was told by a USPS counter clerk.

Good luck getting the pin out as well. It’s clear one end is tapered, but it will not budge. I’ve applied Kroil and will play the waiting game.

If it's tapered, then the direction you push it matters. Maybe do whatever it takes and then convert it to set screws?

 

[TommyKid]

If it was shipped USPS only the shipper can file a claim. At least that's what I was told by a USPS counter clerk.

If it's tapered, then the direction you push it matters. Maybe do whatever it takes and then convert it to set screws?

When I looked into filing the claim, the instructions said either the shipper or receiver can file. If I didn’t do it, I’m afraid it wouldn’t get done.

 

[TommyKid]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but in this position, the pin should be driven out from left to right?

 

[longcruise]

When I looked into filing the claim, the instructions said either the shipper or receiver can file. If I didn’t do it, I’m afraid it wouldn’t get done.

Then, you should file I guess. Apparently I was misinformed.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but in this position, the pin should be driven out from left to right?

That looks right but hard to tell from the picture. Someone who owns the same action might be able to confirm.