Underhammers.com

[goofball]

HI! I just joined. I have a desire to shoot in club silhouette matches. A rifle has to hit, and knock down, a 50 pound metal ram at 200yds. I want something really accurate, and packing plenty of downrange punch. It must shoot patched ball, no conicals.
I was thinking about an underhammer from Bruce at Blue Grouse/Underhammers.com. He sells unfinished but preassembled kits at reasonable prices, about $250.
Has anyone dealt with him? What kind of accuracy are you getting? Recommendations?
I love CW replicas too. Would a CW rifle (under $400) be accurate enough with patched balls for this application?
I am looking at Lyman and T/C too, but man, EVERYBODY has one, I want to be different.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I've had some experience with the old Hopkins & Allen underhammers built by Numrich Arms, simple, reliable and reasonably accurate. As for the new Blue Grouse guns, I have yet to see one although a friend has had a buggy rifle on order since November.
To knock over that 50 pound ram at 200 yards with roundball I think you'll need something well over .50 cal.
My first edition Lyman Blackpowder Handbook shows that if you start a .490 ball at 2000fps you'll have only 254 ft. lb. remaining at 200 yards. That's about like a .38 special at the muzzle. Will that knock it over?
Most folks who shoot blackpowder cartridge want to throw at least 400 grains of lead at those rams.
Knocking over metal plates is the one (I think ONLY) area where momentum comes into play and a heavy bullet retains more momentum.
To increase weight and still be round a ball just has to be larger. That would be one use (I think ONLY use) for really big calibers, .62 or larger. Even then I think you'd need a stout powder charge. Unless the rifle is very heavy recoil would be hell for a long string of shots.
Maybe they're easier to knock over that I would expect but plenty of cartridge shooters will sometimes get a hit that fails to knock that ram over.
:m2c:

 

[silverfox]

goofball:We still use the bear at 200yds and yes it's about 40#s. Siloutes are a lot of fun and whatever you choose it must be a good off hand rifle. I would look at .54 as a good alround siloute rifle. It will handle all the close stuff with a light charge and should handle the long range stuff with a good hunting load. Our bears need at least a .50 with the hit above the belt line to consistancely knock them down. .45s are too small at the long ranges. I would say even .58s but then you will get a lot of elevation problems as I don't remember being able to use adjustable sites. You need as flat a trajectory as you can get and still pack a punch at 200yds. You will get about 4 feet of drop at 200yds.
(Underhammers) I don't know anything about the blue grouse guns but underhammers have been known for their accuracy and speed of ignition for years. I would only say that they are not as easy to get the triggers to be as smooth as some of the other actions. If you go blue grouse ask them about a target hammer and trigger.
I haven't tried PRB in the CW rifles at that range but would think you would need a much better set of sights. We did have a shooter with a muskatoon knock down all the bears one time but he had trouble with the Turkeys and the buffalo. I rambled enough have fun with your choice.
Fox

 

[Slamfire]

I bought one of the original Numrich rifles from Bruce. The barrel was dirty but not rusted, and I had some trouble getting it to shoot to the same place the sights were pointing. In fact I had to change the sights to those he recommends, the Williams WDOS. I haven't shot it since I installed them but don't anticipate any trouble. The sights he puts on the kit guns are not the same as those on the Numrich guns, so you ought not have that trouble. :applause:

 

[bovey]

In a previous life I shot quite a bit of hand gun silhouette. The smallest thing I used in those days was a 200 gr cast lead bullet in a .357 magnum. that gave me about 400 fp's of energy at 200 meters. I would on occasion stick a ram if the target was not set correctly(hard set). When they did fall they fell slooowly...

The point is that I would think you want at least a 200 gr round ball which would point to a .54 cal which weighs about 230 grs. The .50 cal ball will weigh in around 177 grs. A .58 cal ball will be around 276 grs.

I have shot BP cartridge beyond 200 meters but that was a 500gr bullet over 80 grs FF.

I imagine you will need to stoke up the rifle a bit to get it to knock over a 200 meter ram. That said, you need to consider the recoil and weight of the rifle. I would want to consider a wide butt with minimal curve. If you are shooting a 40 round match that is a lot of thumping to take.

The trajectory is a bit like a large arc at 200 meters. If you have a good spotting scope you can watch the ball fall in on a high angle as it hits the target.

Another trick is to use the front shoulder or rump of the target as your point of aim. This will knock off the corresponding leg first and reduce the chance of sticking a target.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Most of the Civil War muskets will shoot a patched roundball OK but it could be tough to find one in your under $400 price range.
:imo: It's getting hard to find anything worthwhile for under $400 new. Lyman trade rifle, OK, but like you said, everybody's got one and if you decorate it to be unique then folks here will jump on you like they do our poor, hard working Zonie.:boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo:

 

[Zonie]

Ohhhh. Aint it the truth?

 

[Metalshaper]

Not quite!!

Take a look!!

Home built..surplus barrel( from Gun parts ) WAY, under $100.. Of course this is just what a couple of Jerky's, came up with, while mucking about in the Shop!! ::

Respect Always
Metalshaper

 

[BS]

Metalshaper,
Looks like a keeper, how does it shoot?

 

[Metalshaper]

BS,

Real Nice!

It turned out, really well and fairly lightweight at 5 lbs 6 oz. When I sighted it in, < and NO Bull :nono: > the first two shots cut one ragged, figure 8 looking hole! of course they were 6" too low and to the right. ::

We have given it a work out and CJ likes to shoot it with a 45grn charge. This barrel has a 1:56 twist and shoots this load very accurately. The only trouble 'I've' encountered. Is with the drop and the short 12" length of pull.. I get a nice jab under the cheek, when the loads get up over 60 grns.

The next one I build, will be fitted to my frame. Will be kind of a 'Mar/Dag, Heritage model". I've redrawn the lockworks, to work < hopefully > with an internal mainspring and the trigger guard will be a Hawken/English scroll style. We've also web searched and found a PC version of a target peep sight.. So I intend to add it as an accessory!

We've also came up with a way to dress up the frame some, as well!

Respect Always
Metalshaper

 

[bovey]

Metalshaper, you mentioned in a post elsewhere that you came up with a method of designing the lock so you did not have any pins passing through the receiver (inserted 'lockworks'). Would you care to elaborate on your redesign? Thanks...

 

[MRW]

Here is another one of the Mar Dag underhammer we made in the shop this one is under $60.00 barrel was on sale for $19.95


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y185/52MRW/MVC-054S.jpg

 

[Slamfire]

Very good looking, price notwithstanding. :master: