Unknown Flintlock?

[JayGibson]

Thank you for the encouraging post but it will be shot if it enters these premises. :haha:

I had the seller take it and get it inspected as he knows nothing about guns, obviously, but he's a nice fellow and a professional man (surgeon). It came back with a ready to go. He also assured me that he'll refund my payment and my shipping back fee to him if it is not ready to fire.

I will make proper bore measurement and either craft or have crafted a proper mould. Frankly, am stoked about getting it. I generally make my own BP for revolvers. . . may have to buy some new screens :haha:

Maybe I'm overly touchy?

Regards, kaintuck and God bless you.

 

[NEW222]

Nice gun you are getting there. I would like to get me one like that one day. I just got to get back into shooting more often to warrant it, and I think this is the year......

 

[Zonie]

I doubt that anyone commenting negatively on your gun was doing so to belittle it or you. They were just telling you what they observed about the gun.

As for the gun, I can honestly say it was custom built and not made in a factory. Where the pieces came from is anybody's guess as is when it was made.
A good guess would be sometime in the 1960-1970 time frame.

Although it is not the finest workmanship, it is better than some that I've seen.
If the barrels bore is in good condition, it is easily worth the amount you spent for it.

As you are a shooter, I'll not get into the in's and out's of shooting a flintlock except to remind you that only real black powder works well in a flintlock.

Have fun with your new rifle. :thumbsup:

 

[faste350]

its a neat and unique piece. i would keep it as is looks wise,clean up the barrel and shoot it. let us know how it shoots.

 

[JayGibson]

That's probably all of the info to be gleaned.

Older ratty looking guns speak to my soul I suppose. I shoot that semi-custom above because I love big recoil, I traded for it. I load it 55K psi and blaze away, that chopped to 4 5/8" barrel let's you know you alive. I would NEVER contract for a custom gun. I have a bunch of old beat down Marlins that talk to me, I'm odd I guess.

Adios.

 

[JayGibson]

Thank you. I expect it will suit me.

I am steeped in the old ways.

I appreciate the encouragement and you are right my likes. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[Wes/Tex]

It's unfortunate the whole post took a different turn but it's an interesting older rifle that certainly could be pampered a bit and put to use. All exterior can be made 'prettier' with a little TLC and if the bore is dirty or even pitted, a good cleaning might really surprise you at how much you can get out of it. back in the late 40's and early 50's, makers like Hacker Martin were keeping the tradition alive. His work didn't match the best of the early smiths, but his guns were clean and serviceable. This one has equal possibilities. :thumbsup:

 

[JayGibson]

It's unfortunate the whole post took a different turn but it's an interesting older rifle that certainly could be pampered a bit and put to use. All exterior can be made 'prettier' with a little TLC and if the bore is dirty or even pitted, a good cleaning might really surprise you at how much you can get out of it. back in the late 40's and early 50's, makers like Hacker Martin were keeping the tradition alive. His work didn't match the best of the early smiths, but his guns were clean and serviceable. This one has equal possibilities. :thumbsup:

You bet my friend. I think I will stick around here a while. Time for some Gunsmoke and soon, some slumber- I find Dillon throwing a beating on some bad guy, calming.

I will clean the old flint gun up and make some videos of the grand smokepole in a couple of weeks or so.

So odd to me to be so ignorant of something in the gun world. I will learn.

 

[Wes/Tex]

You have to remember that muzzleloaders are a different twist in the gun world. In a rather odd way, you have to accept the limitations found using them and make yourself a better stalker or shooter. A lot of older guns were built from odds and ends of parts. Yours appears to have been at least built with an old CVA lock. The early CVA guns could probably be thought of as entry level now and many of us moved on to something more shiny or 'authentic' looking. Like the Kentucky and Mountain Rifle, those old guns went right on winning matches and putting venison on the table. Like CVA, Mowery and H&A may not have built fancy but they built sturdy and useful. Even the odd pieces that may have been a basement project using gathered parts deserves to be cared for and use. :thumbsup:

 

[Captjoel]

I would say that your rifle reminds me of my first flintlock acquired many years ago purchased from a want add in the news paper. It was definitely not as purty as some, but it shot better than most. After looking at your rifle's lock I am nearly certain that it is an old original lock that appears to be unmolested (reconverted). The lock all by itself is worth nearly the price you paid for your entire rifle. There is a very big collectors market for locks all by themselves! One of the fun things I like to do these days is to buy rifles like this one and fix them up. A few years ago I bought an original western PA longrifle (ca 1840) that had a late MM Maslin flintlock on it. The lock, like the rifle it was mounted on look like they never left the closet.

 

[don hepler]

First off let me say, that's just the kind of rifle that I like. Surrounded by mystery. I find rifles like these and bring them back to life. You can go two ways, clean it up and leave all the aged patina in place, or go over the gun and completely redo. That's what makes it interesting. I just bought a flintlock pistol, and fixed it up, leaving as much of the original patina as possible. I did remove the rust by carding it away and cold bluing and steel wooled back to an original patina. I completely disassembled the lock, and removed all traces of rust, cold blued it and steel wooled it back to an original patina. I cleaned the brass, but then used cold bluing to blacken and steel wooled it back to an aged patina. I'd pull the barrel and clean and wax under it, and reseat the tang. I'd bet it will seat down in it's original position.

I'm wondering if Dixie, sold a lock like that. My pistol has a similar looking lock, with Ashmore Warrented on it. Dixie sells a L&R replacement lock to replace the Spainish Maslin, Russ Hamm, Cva, etc. On the inside of my lock, it has Dixie stamped on it. In the 60's and 70's, about the only way to build a rifle, was to order parts, out of catalogs.
I like it, and get it shooting and enjoy. Give us a report, I'd enjoy hearing about it.

 

[MacRob46]

Dixie G W did sell the Russ Hamm Maslin lock at one time. A lot of them are still around but I believe they are no longer being produced. I am a little baffled by the spelling on the lock of this gun as "Maslam", and wonder if the maker actually engraved the lock. I had never encountered that spelling until this rifle was discussed. I could not find any reference to that spelling except for one Ebay listing, of all things, which did not produce a photo. CVA and some other makers copied the Maslin style for their guns. A lot of those locks were produced in Spain.

Jay, of course, originally asked the question of who might have produced the gun. Absent a signature that can be traced to a known gun maker I would have to say this gun was produced by someone who probably was not in the business. We may never know who, unless the builder sees this post and responds. And, my apologies if he thought my comments were unhelpful. They were intended to point out the inexperience of the builder. The gun will probably shoot well and can be cleaned up and perhaps re-furbished a bit to get make it into a more attractive piece. Best of luck with whatever he decides to do.

 

[Vaino]

"They" say..."don't criticize a man's wife or girlfriend or a man's gun ...so I won't.....Fred

 

[Captjoel]

Fred, I always thought it was: "Never BORROW a man's wife, girlfriend, or gun." :stir: Always wondered who "they" are.

 

[JayGibson]

Guess others cannot spell either.

"Antique Gun 2785. Reconversion Pennsylvania Kentucky Rifle.

Signed A&B (Amos Border). Circa 1830-1840, from Bedford, PA. 43" barrel; caliber approximately .45. Excellent bore; smooth metal. Lock marked MM Maslam Warranted. Excellent, tiger-striped stock is very attractive; brass patch box excellent and unpolished. Very eye-catching rifle. $2450"

Same image posted earlier:

 

[MacRob46]

Reconversion is the key. The lock is not original to the gun which was made as a percussion piece. My guess is that someone made up a few locks some years ago - we know of at least two, don't we - either for building some new guns or converting percussion guns to flintlock and put the M M Maslam name on them. The Bedford County rifle you pictured has all the characteristics associated with that area with the exception of the lock. Most of the Bedford Rifles were percussion but those with flintlocks had the same slender plate as the percussion guns. This one, of course, and as nearly as I can make out, does not. It is still an interesting piece.

On the subject of reconversion, IMHO it should not be done. Whatever the configuration of an antique gun, the final configuration is part of its history. As we all know, a lot of guns were converted from flint to percussion in their lifetimes and a lot of flintlocks were modified to percussion before being installed on guns. To reconvert a nice firearm is falsifying a part of its history and I wish folks would not do it. A good friend of mine who lives a few miles from me "reconverted" a Leman trade rifle many years ago, although it was never a flintlock. But, he likes it so I guess one cannot say much about it.

 

[JayGibson]

My post was meant to point out this:

". . . and wonder if the maker actually engraved the lock."

Indeed, if he did, he did AT LEAST two, for quite different guns. Hm.

I think if one ably applies a bit of inductive and maybe a smattering of deductive reasoning they could arrive at some conclusions.

 

[JayGibson]

I suspect we got off on the wrong foot and I doubt we'll ever find common footing. . .

I expect I am very different than you are. I am utterly tone deaf to the aesthetic pleasures of old treasures. I admire strength in a firearm and to certain degrees age. I do not consider 'arms' that cannot or are not fired, 'arms'. That is just me. I do not mind in the least a sturdy well made replica, never have; I like 'em; I like sturdy, per se. This is not say to say that the terms are mutually exclusive and that one cannot acquire both in one package but that requires a different definition of 'beauty' than I hold, maybe this will make sense. . . maybe not. . . read on. . .

While it is a human, all too human thing to be contradictory, I despise it, yet it is within me.

Witness:

I love old guns that have souls equally as well, not for any aesthetic quality but for the character I see in them. They reach down inside me and say communicate with me. It is ineffable. If I see a 20K hand crafted masterpiece, I admire it but it interests me very little. A solid well made hunk of garbage that shoots well and has a few miles on it, that's my style. An 'olde' worn out gun that is contemporary to its era and still shoots interests me infinitely more than an old gun contemporary to its era that is pristine.

I make no claims to be internally consistent but maybe with a bit of 'lawyering' you can grasp my notions.

Regards and I will definitely post videos. Perhaps some 50 Alaskan level loads in my BFR pistol (revolver) contrasted with the old flinter, I dig BOTH.

:shocked2: :shocked2: :shocked2:

ADDITIONALLY: Based on the wisdom shared here, I called the seller last night and he swears he bought the gun from a guy in Santa Barbara and that the guy had it for many years. I said, "yeah three years if you bought two years ago, because he got it from some guy in Missouri, in 2008." :haha: I now believe it is a smoothbore in .41 caliber. That mystery will soon be solved, though.

That's me. A simple working man

 

[Eric Krewson]

A great friend gave me my first longrifle when he was diagnosed with terminal cancer. Not knowing anything about muzzloaders beyond TC I thought it was a work of art.

I took it to a gunsmith friend to show it off and the first thing he said was "who ever made this didn't know what they were doing", really hurt my feelings at the time.

The rifle peaked my interest with its Bob Roller lock and Bill Large barrel and one ragged hole groups at 50yds.

Sold all of my TC stuff and used this rifle exclusively, lots of deer died in front of it.

I soon wanted to build my own rifle and started the process by in depth study of styles, originals and contemporary rifles.

I quickly found out that my gunsmith friend's evaluation was correct about my rifle. Nothing on my rifle was properly fit, shaped or inletted(lots of accuglass) but it had the finest piece of maple I have ever seen on a gun, to the untrained eye was something special indeed.

As I became more accomplished as a builder I thought about reworking the rifle my friend gave me but realized just how special it is and will never touch it. I love it just like it is, warts and all. A big doe took a dirt nap in front of it just his year.

Bottom line, you your rifle is a mess just like mine is, that said, you probably have a fine rifle to enjoy, warts and all.

Although you took it personally just like I did years ago, the guys were just telling you the truth.

 

[JayGibson]

A great friend gave me my first longrifle when he was diagnosed with terminal cancer. Not knowing anything about muzzloaders beyond TC I thought it was a work of art.

I took it to a gunsmith friend to show it off and the first thing he said was "who ever made this didn't know what they were doing", really hurt my feelings at the time.

The rifle peaked my interest with its Bob Roller lock and Bill Large barrel and one ragged hole groups at 50yds.

Sold all of my TC stuff and used this rifle exclusively, lots of deer died in front of it.

I soon wanted to build my own rifle and started the process by in depth study of styles, originals and contemporary rifles.

I quickly found out that my gunsmith friend's evaluation was correct about my rifle. Nothing on my rifle was properly fit, shaped or inletted(lots of accuglass) but it had the finest piece of maple I have ever seen on a gun, to the untrained eye was something special indeed.

As I became more accomplished as a builder I thought about reworking the rifle my friend gave me but realized just how special it is and will never touch it. I love it just like it is, warts and all. A big doe took a dirt nap in front of it just his year.

Bottom line, you your rifle is a mess just like mine is, that said, you probably have a fine rifle to enjoy, warts and all.

Although you took it personally just like I did years ago, the guys were just telling you the truth.

No, no. I took it as irrelevant and superfluous commentary. Why? Because it is both. The commentary on the rifle qua build has nothing to do with where it may have come from unless used as a background for framing their reasoning, in which case sharing it is STILL superfluous. Telling me it is poorly crafted does not have any value. I asked where it may have come from, I think I got almost as many answers as posters, from a Traditions kit rifle to whatever, a few even decided to tell me what was wrong with it. I don't care about that. I just wondered if anyone here might have some insight as to who made it or where it came from. The answer is evidently, "no". As for telling me the rifle looks like complete garbage:

1) No, it does not look like complete garbage

2) It has no relevance as to your knowledge of who might have made it.

Why is "2)" true? If one wants to simply reduce the field of possible makers by telling me that mine looks like garbage and how poorly it has been crafted, thus no reputable makers made it, then one has no de facto answer to offer. Pass my thread by. Nothing bad will happen to you, just pass it by. Simple.

Many years ago, I bought an OM Ruger in .44 Mag, the tolerances were rather sloppy and overall it was ragged but it has pole-axed more four legged critters than one could imagine. I see clowns telling me how sloppy it is and how wonderful custom revolvers are. . . uh-huh. I like my ragged OM just fine. Does that mean I am ignorant of its limitations or that I need those clowns to tell its faults? No, I am well aware of them. It's fine, as I have many myself. I can see this gun's faults, they are legion. I do not need or require them to be pointed out in a thread where I ask a very different question.

I think I may be in the wrong place. Sad, because I got a couple of nice private messages. I suppose I poorly express myself or many think my notions are anathema. Oh well. . .

I apologize for the sarcasm but not the message.

:haha: