Unmarked .36 percussion rifle

[RockingKJ]

Here is one of my favorite antique rifles. .36 cal, slender and lightweight. Light engraving on the lock put no discernible makers mark. Has a very nice bore and a shooter. Does not have a half cock and looking at the inside never had one. Set the trigger and cock. Fine for paper punching but would not care to carry it hunting with hammer down on a cap. Any guesses at to pedigree is welcome.

 

[jd45]

Would you like to sell it? What's the twist rate? Sorry I don't have any info.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

Very nice rifle! Might be from Indiana.

 

[RockingKJ]

Would you like to sell it? What's the twist rate? Sorry I don't have any info.

Not looking to sell her. Every time I take her to a shoot, have to wipe off the dool from folks admiring her. lol most folks are shooting modern common rifles. So an antique garners some attention. Appears to be about 1-66 twist.

 

[smoothshooter]

Here is one of my favorite antique rifles. .36 cal, slender and lightweight. Light engraving on the lock put no discernible makers mark. Has a very nice bore and a shooter. Does not have a half cock and looking at the inside never had one. Set the trigger and cock. Fine for paper punching but would not care to carry it hunting with hammer down on a cap. Any guesses at to pedigree is welcome.

Why would any factory make a percussion gun lock without a half-cock???
This gun is not the first one I have heard about lacking that feature.

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[Gtrubicon]

Amazing rifle!

 

[The Crisco Kid]

I think there was a recent discussion here about caplocks with no half cock notch that were meant to be carried capped with the hammer down on the nipple. Someone mentioned having a piece of leather on the cap that would fall off when the lock was cocked. That seems pretty safe to me. I don't know if the triggers are set before or after the lock is brought to full cock. That is a really nice looking rifle and I wouldn't sell it either.

 

[RockingKJ]

I think there was a recent discussion here about caplocks with no half cock notch that were meant to be carried capped with the hammer down on the nipple. Someone mentioned having a piece of leather on the cap that would fall off when the lock was cocked. That seems pretty safe to me. I don't know if the triggers are set before or after the lock is brought to full cock. That is a really nice looking rifle and I wouldn't sell it either.

This rifle you have to set the trigger to cock it. It’s so slender the sear stub (probably a better name) does not allow the trigger room to cock unless the trigger is set. Probably could thin that down and or the trigger to fix this but this rifle appears has been this way since built. So reluctant to play gunsmith now.

 

[Stykbow]

Fine looking rifle there. Question, what is a good estimate on the manufacture date of this rifle?

 

[RockingKJ]

Fine looking rifle there. Question, what is a good estimate on the manufacture date of this rifle?

I’m sure there will be someone with a good estimate. I am guessing 1850’s-maybe 1870’s but I’m no expert by any means.

 

[Stykbow]

I’m sure there will be someone with a good estimate. I am guessing 1850’s-maybe 1870’s but I’m no expert by any means.

Thanks. Here is why I asked. What about this rifle tells you it’s that old? If I saw this rifle for sale I’d think it was produced more recently because it’s in such good shape. I’m trying to educate myself on how to recognize an original for what it is if it doesn’t show its age.

 

[RockingKJ]

Thanks. Here is why I asked. What about this rifle tells you it’s that old? If I saw this rifle for sale I’d think it was produced more recently because it’s in such good shape. I’m trying to educate myself on how to recognize an original for what it is if it doesn’t show its age.

It would be easier if you could have the rifle in your hands to see the indicators. Granted age can be artificially induced. This rifle when you look at the complete package as they say lock, stock and barrel it all fits being an old rifle. My pictures probably make it look a bit nicer than it is. Once you have been around and handled antique muzzle loaders it’s
Easier to recognize an antique. At some point I will post another of my antique rifles which is in such nice shape you would have difficulty thinking it’s antique. I know this probably has not helped but markings or the lack of them aid in age identification.

 

[The Crisco Kid]

My guess is that the rifling dates it. I don't know of anyone making barrels with the seven wide lands and narrow grooves. I'd like to know if it's a right or left hand twist. If I'm wrong I'm someone here can educate me.

 

[Stykbow]

I noticed the rifling too @The Crisco Kid. The rifling screams “old barrel” to me, but the stock looks so nice in the pics I’d have thought it was restocked at the very least. Like I said though, I’m a novice and don’t recognize all of the indicators for what they are.

 

[RockingKJ]

My guess is that the rifling dates it. I don't know of anyone making barrels with the seven wide lands and narrow grooves. I'd like to know if it's a right or left hand twist. If I'm wrong I'm someone here can educate me.

I just checked and it’s right twist. I don’t think it’s been restocked however it could have been refinished. All the screw heads aline in the same direction which to me I a clue to a quality restoration work. Certainly made it look right if it was worked on.

 

[IanH]

If it won't hold full cock until the trigger is set, the trigger mainspring is overtraveling. The notch it engages in the rear trigger can be relieved some until it doesn't hold the rear trigger bar against the sear, or a stop screw or shim can be added to the trigger plate so the mainspring doesn't push so far down on the rear trigger. The rear trigger bar should actuate the sear bar by inertia only and not put any direct pressure on the sear bar at any time. I would take the lock out and inspect the tumbler for a half-cock notch. I have seen more than one old rifle with set triggers that didn't have a fly or provision for one in the lock, causing the sear nose to become so damaged that it simply would not go in the half cock notch but would still function in the full cock notch.

 

[RockingKJ]

If it won't hold full cock until the trigger is set, the trigger mainspring is overtraveling. The notch it engages in the rear trigger can be relieved some until it doesn't hold the rear trigger bar against the sear, or a stop screw or shim can be added to the trigger plate so the mainspring doesn't push so far down on the rear trigger. The rear trigger bar should actuate the sear bar by inertia only and not put any direct pressure on the sear bar at any time. I would take the lock out and inspect the tumbler for a half-cock notch. I have seen more than one old rifle with set triggers that didn't have a fly or provision for one in the lock, causing the sear nose to become so damaged that it simply would not go in the half cock notch but would still function in the full cock notch.

Here’s is a look at the innards. As you see if the trigger is not set the front trigger allows no clearance to cock. I see no evidence there ever was a half cock. Thoughts?

 

[Kansas Jake]

Tingle made his modern era rifles that was in the early 1960s-70s. There are no provisions for a half cock.

 

[IanH]

Yep, no half cock. Not even a rebound feature like some back-action locks have.

The rear trigger bar in #7761 is what's keeping the lock from cocking unset. I can see from the front trigger position relative to the plate that the front trigger bar isn't what's holding up the works, if it even has a front bar that would enable it to fire unset (double-acting type).

The general advice is to file down the rear bar but this is usually the wrong thing to do because it weakens the bar and removes mass it needs to work properly, unless it is just grossly too tall. Sometimes a combination of filing down the top of the rear trigger bar and limiting the trigger mainspring travel is necessary, but usually if it works by pre-setting the trigger then the mainspring overtravel is all that needs adjusting.

Pull the cock to full cock position with the triggers unset and hold it there. Then pull the rear trigger very slowly until the lock's sear bar engages full cock. That amount of rear trigger movement should be FREE. No spring pressure at all on the rear trigger. With the rear trigger unset and the lock at full cock (which it won't currently do), there should be a teensy amount of free play in the rear trigger. When set up properly, the trigger mainspring only engages the rear trigger at the very back end of the rear trigger's travel, allowing the sear bar free movement into the full cock notch. Then the rear trigger can be pulled farther back against the mainspring to set it, and when the front trigger is pulled, the loaded rear trigger releases and slaps the sear bar, activating the sear bar through inertia only. The rear trigger mainspring should never force the rear trigger bar to touch the sear bar directly at any time, but "flings" the rear trigger at the sear bar and stops against the trigger plate just before the trigger bar hits the sear bar and the inertia of the trigger then carries through and fires the lock.

It's like a billiard shot. The trigger mainspring is your arm, the cue stick is the rear trigger, and the sear bar is the cue ball. The stick and cue ball only touch for an instant to transfer the energy and the is no follow-through contact.

Remove the trigger assembly and note where/how the main spring contacts the rear trigger and what the mainspring stops on. Either raise the stop, file the jose of the mainspring, or file the part of the rear trigger that the mainspring nose engages so that the main spring doesn't force the rear trigger to keep the sear bar disengaged from the full cock notch. You should be able to install the lock in the rifle fully cocked and with the trigger NOT set. I dislike the arrangement you have now because it makes it very difficult to thumb the hammer down gently. Hope this helps some.

 

[RockingKJ]

Yep, no half cock. Not even a rebound feature like some back-action locks have.

The rear trigger bar in #7761 is what's keeping the lock from cocking unset. I can see from the front trigger position relative to the plate that the front trigger bar isn't what's holding up the works, if it even has a front bar that would enable it to fire unset (double-acting type).

The general advice is to file down the rear bar but this is usually the wrong thing to do because it weakens the bar and removes mass it needs to work properly, unless it is just grossly too tall. Sometimes a combination of filing down the top of the rear trigger bar and limiting the trigger mainspring travel is necessary, but usually if it works by pre-setting the trigger then the mainspring overtravel is all that needs adjusting.

Pull the cock to full cock position with the triggers unset and hold it there. Then pull the rear trigger very slowly until the lock's sear bar engages full cock. That amount of rear trigger movement should be FREE. No spring pressure at all on the rear trigger. With the rear trigger unset and the lock at full cock (which it won't currently do), there should be a teensy amount of free play in the rear trigger. When set up properly, the trigger mainspring only engages the rear trigger at the very back end of the rear trigger's travel, allowing the sear bar free movement into the full cock notch. Then the rear trigger can be pulled farther back against the mainspring to set it, and when the front trigger is pulled, the loaded rear trigger releases and slaps the sear bar, activating the sear bar through inertia only. The rear trigger mainspring should never force the rear trigger bar to touch the sear bar directly at any time, but "flings" the rear trigger at the sear bar and stops against the trigger plate just before the trigger bar hits the sear bar and the inertia of the trigger then carries through and fires the lock.

It's like a billiard shot. The trigger mainspring is your arm, the cue stick is the rear trigger, and the sear bar is the cue ball. The stick and cue ball only touch for an instant to transfer the energy and the is no follow-through contact.

Remove the trigger assembly and note where/how the main spring contacts the rear trigger and what the mainspring stops on. Either raise the stop, file the jose of the mainspring, or file the part of the rear trigger that the mainspring nose engages so that the main spring doesn't force the rear trigger to keep the sear bar disengaged from the full cock notch. You should be able to install the lock in the rifle fully cocked and with the trigger NOT set. I dislike the arrangement you have now because it makes it very difficult to thumb the hammer down gently. Hope this helps some.

Thanks for the great description. I’m not wild about the way she functions but for my occasional paper punching at the range I will choose to live with it. I’m capable of great things but occasionally my projects can go south as they say.