Using copper

[Trapper]

I just reciently bought a copper canteen from a reputal dealer in the northeast and he claimed it was ok not to have the copper canteen tin lined. He said it was ok when only water was added into it. My question is can I line the insides with bees wax? Will the bees wax react with the copper? I know I should of bought the stainless steel but I wanted to stay a little more period correct.
Trapper

 

[ameling]

Yes, you can line it with bee's wax. But WHY? If you are just carrying water in it, why bother?

UN-LINED copper pipes have been used for many decades for water pipes in house, and without problems, so why would you think that your canteen would be different? There are a few people that are allergic to copper, but they are rare. The rest of the "hype" over copper comes from those very early days when cooked foods in copper vessels and left that food in the pot for days on end. Plus they cooked everything in those vessels, and ate out of them every day for years. The slight leaching of chemical compounds out of the copper by the food, combined with the crud and "tarnish" from poor cleaning is how they slowly got poisoned over many years.

The only problem you have with copper is if you put things into it that react with the copper. And then only if you STORE that liquid in it long enough for that chemical interaction/reaction to take place. So the "concerns" about using copper have moved more towards phobias (unreasoned fear) than cautious CLEAN usage.

Just clean and dry it in between use like you should any copper container. And "stainless" steel is no guarenty of anything. Stainless steel still tarnishes and rusts, it just takes longer.

Just my humble thoughts to share. Take them as such.

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

 

[Trapper]

Thanks Mike, I forgot about copper pipes being used in houses. I must be getting old I'm forgetting some of the simple things.
Trapper

 

[Bob Gular]

As long as nothing acidic is carried in it, there are no health issues. When I was in the Army (yes I can remember that far back) we were issued aluminum canteens and the same rule applied. Water only!

 

[ameling]

As long as nothing acidic is carried in it, there are no health issues. When I was in the Army (yes I can remember that far back) we were issued aluminum canteens and the same rule applied. Water only!

Yeah, there's a lot they never tell people about aluminum. Just to "unsettle" your mind a bit, take an aluminum pot, put some water in it, and the bring it up to a slow boil on the stove. Then watch the ... black scum ... start to form on top of it. Them ejumacated x-purts tell us that it is of no concern and won't hurt you - that it is from the water not the aluminum pot. But it does the same thing even with distilled water (without any other chemicals or minerals in it). There's a lot of good stuff made from aluminum, but there's also a lot more to the story that has not been told.

So coating the inside of a copper canteen is not really necessary - unless you will be keeping acidic juice in it for hours - like tomato juice or lemon/lime juice. It's the long term contact that you have to worry about. And keeping it CLEAN. That green tarnish (verdegres) is where the danger lies.

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

p.s. Some people coat the inside of their copper canteens and mugs with a food-save polyeurothane type finish - but mostly to help keep it clean and slow down that normal tarnishing.

 

[Homesteader]

That green tarnish (verdegres) is where the danger lies.

That brings a question to mind. Once you've got some of that verdigris in a copper pot or kettle, is there anything you can do to remove it and make it safe again? Can such a kettle be returned to service, or is it done for?

 

[Claude Mathis]

That green tarnish (verdegres) is where the danger lies.

That brings a question to mind. Once you've got some of that verdigris in a copper pot or kettle, is there anything you can do to remove it and make it safe again? Can such a kettle be returned to service, or is it done for?

There are several ways to remove it, here is one...

Verdigris, which develops when the copper comes into contact with acid and fat, is poisonous if eaten, so it must be completely removed before the item is used in food preparation. The traditional way of removing verdigris is to use a solution of salt and ammonia (1/2 teaspoon salt, splash of ammonia in 1 cup (250 ml) of water). Use this to wipe off the verdigris, then polish with a clean cloth and chalk powder.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Any of the brass cleaners or copper pot cleaners will take off the verdigris. You can also use lemon juice and salt, or vinegar and salt on a swab to wipe it off. Sometimes you have to do a bit of scrubbing, but that is what the salt will do for you.

There is a product on the market that looks like a steel plate with holes in it. You put in a shallow container with water, and merely dip the object to be cleaned into the water. Some kind of chemical reaction occurs and the tarnish is remove instantly. I don't remember the name of the product, but you can often find it for sale where silverware and silverplate is sold ( as wedding gifts.) I saw it in a hardware store once, so Its around. It works great. A friend had a second hand store specializing in used costume jewelry. She used the stuff to clean up all the jewelry that she bought from customers, before putting them out for sale.

 

[renovato]

That green tarnish (verdegres) is where the danger lies.

That brings a question to mind. Once you've got some of that verdigris in a copper pot or kettle, is there anything you can do to remove it and make it safe again? Can such a kettle be returned to service, or is it done for?

Salt and vinegar will remove it in a jiffy. I use them to clean the copper bowls I use for beating eggs and such.

 

[Many Klatch]

Boil tomato juice in it. That will take the verdigris out in a New York minute. Just throw the mess out and don't eat it.

Many KLatch

 

[Homesteader]

UN-LINED copper pipes have been used for many decades for water pipes in house, and without problems...

Since copper pipes carry hot water as well as cold without problem, does that mean it'd be safe to use an unlined (or poorly lined) copper vessel for heating water? Y'know, for tea and the like?

 

[omarick1948]

One thing that nobody has touched on here, is LEAD!....If your copper canteen is held together. What type of solder was used?...Many of the imported copper and brass metal wares have lead soldered seams!.. :hmm:

 

[ameling]

UN-LINED copper pipes have been used for many decades for water pipes in house, and without problems...

Since copper pipes carry hot water as well as cold without problem, does that mean it'd be safe to use an unlined (or poorly lined) copper vessel for heating water? Y'know, for tea and the like?

Cooking in copper only becomes a problem when you have some acidic foods in it. Those can react with the copper and leach out some of the minerals. But it takes time to do that. People found out about the "metal" contamination problem ages ago because of the way they cooked in their copper/brass pans/kettles. They would have food setting it their kettles for hours or days at a time. A common practice was to have a kettle full of soup/stew hanging next to the fire keep warm. After each meal, they would add a little more to the pot and set it to "simmering". It would often be several days before the pot ever got emptied and cleaned. Remember that old kids tune: peas porrige hot - peas porrige cold - peas porrige in the pot - NINE days old! So they often had food STORED in their copper/brass pots for days. That LONG TERM exposure combined with poor cleaning led to lots of metal contaminants leaching out into the food. Then combine that with those people eating out of that same copper/brass kettle most every day of their life for years on end. That all adds up to them ingesting lots of metal contaminants.

So copper is safe to use if you do a few things:

- keep it clean!
- don't store food in it!
- don't use it as your only cooking vessel every day for years - especially if you don't follow rules 1 and 2!

****Personal opinion/experience*****
I have no concerns about using my un-lined copper kettle for occasional cooking in, even things like chili. But I keep it clean, and I NEVER store cooked food in it. Careful but cautious use.

Just my humble thoughts to share. Take them as such.

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

p.s. Here's a pic of my wee copper kettle and several brass ones. The upper left is a Jim Kimpell coversion with dog-ear bale lugs. The others I coverted and added an iron-rim to the tops. So they will fit the early to mid 1700's, and on back into the 1600's.

 

[Homesteader]

Thank you.

 

[wil]

WOW mike way to scare the manure out of folks!!! :shocked2: Always enjoy your post.
To all you fellers out there,I have one word; TIN. I use tin for almost evrything except my canteen(its copper). Tin pots, tin mucket, its lighter to carry, heats up fast, cooks nicely, and you don't have to worry about catching the hoobiiecoobie of the blowhole. Tin, the reenacters tupperware. :wink:
wil

 

[Homesteader]

hoobiiecoobie of the blowhole.

:rotf: :rotf: :applause:

 

[davemcg]

They would have food setting it their kettles for hours or days at a time. A common practice was to have a kettle full of soup/stew hanging next to the fire keep warm. After each meal, they would add a little more to the pot and set it to "simmering". It would often be several days before the pot ever got emptied and cleaned.

My grandad's uncle wrote in his autobiography about a time toward the turn of the century (19/ 20th) when he and two other guys were traveling around looking for work, they were taking turns cooking, 2-3 week stints each. This one particular time this guy had been cooking for a couple weeks or so, and everyone was getting cramps and the runs etc. after a few days of this, either uncle or the other guy looked in the pot and it was teeming with maggots and flies, they asked the "cook", "Is that what you've been feeding us?" His reply was; "Well yeah, oh I dip the maggots out on a regular basis of course."
:barf: :barf: :barf: He didn't have to pull KP the remainder of the trip. I guess with this guy it wouldn't matter what he was cooking in.

 

[flintlockmdj]

Did they have aluminum during the Revolutionary war? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

 

[ameling]

King Louis the something or other of France had a set of aluminum dishes back in the 1700's. But they were VERY EXPENSIVE at that time, and extremely rare. More expensive than silver, gold, even platnum - at that time.

So they did know how to make aluminum back in the 1700's, but the process was very expensive. And then new methods of production were developed, and aluminum became as common as iron in the 1900's.

So it did exist back then, but only a few of the very very wealthy could afford it, and they never would have took it out "camping".

Modern camping note:
The aluminum lid from one of those early square maytag washing machines makes an excellent griddle for use over the fire when turned upside down. That lid is very thick and already has a molded up lip all around it. And that thick aluminum really helps spread out and even out the heat. It's probably around 1 1/2 feet square. You can cook for quite a large crew on it - and it will work far better than any modern aluminum "camping" griddle.

Just a few humble thoughts to share. Take them as such.

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

 

[BillinOregon]

Actually, I thought it was tarnished brass cookware, not copper, that poisoned people. Anyone know what precisely in verdigris is the culprit?