Velocity

[matt denison]

"Recently on a borrowed chrograph..."

See highlight above. :rotf:

Brownbear's results are consistent with my findings.

Keep your chrono atleast 8' away or you will blow the skyscreens off. -unless it belongs to someone else then who cares.

 

[Leatherbark]

When I let persons shoot across my Chronograph they shoot it.

 

[Stubert]

I am the only person that shoots across my screens, too many people have the, It's not mine, sorry attitude

 

[bob4st]

...65 to 70 gr. of 3F Goex behind a .490 Hornady PRB has always worked fine for me out to 75+ yards...

 

[matt denison]

When I let persons shoot across my Chronograph they shoot it.

My Chrono has an ugly scar down the right side, repaired with duct tape, created by a .44 mag, 310 grain truncated cone bullet shot from a 4 inch Ruger flat top. My good friend just wanted to "shoot a few of these" AhhhHHH! I had to make a new sky screen from a .22 cal cleaning rod. Fortunately it didn't hit any vital parts inside. That is the last time anyone will ever shoot through it besides me.

 

[juancho]

I have a .45 cal 42 in barrel and just recently did some speed testing.
10grs FFFG 550 fps= 85fpe or 8.5fpe/grain of powder
20grs 980fps = 270fpe or 13.5fpe/gr
30grs 1200fps = 406fpe or 13.5fpe/gr
40grs 1400fps =552fpe or 13.8fpe/gr
60grs 1700fps = 815fpe or13.5fpe/gr
75grs 1850fps = 965fpe or 12.8 fpe/gr
I stop at that load as per the formula of 11.5 grains of powder per cubic inch of barrel as the maximum eficient load.
I know I can get higher speeds with more powder but I kind of run out of time at the range.
Accuracy was non existent with 10 grains. 20 was good enough for a 3 inch group at 50 yds , and form 30 on up it was a tack driver, at around 1 to 1 1/2 inch groups at 50 yds.
I did all this because we have this new hunting reg for small game with a limit of 400 fpe in Ontario.
Next time I'll try the .54 and see if I get close to the 13.5 fpe/grain I got with the .45
I used FFFG Goex on the .45 , and use FFG Goex for the .54.
After that I'll try the Bess with FG and see what I get.
I also tried 225 grains slugs with 60 grs, good for 1400 fps = 980 fpe or 16.3 fpe/gr.Slugs are a diferent beast.
I draw today on the computer a prototype slug I want to make for the .45 with the same weight as a RB.When and if I find the time ,I'll design and make the tooling for them.The idea is to drop a RB in the die and swage it into a slug.Will it work? :idunno:

 

[roundball]

I draw today on the computer a prototype slug I want to make for the .45 with the same weight as a RB.When and if I find the time ,I'll design and make the tooling for them.The idea is to drop a RB in the die and swage it into a slug.Will it work? :idunno:

Using an actual 128grn ball as the limiting factor, the only thing I can picture in my mind is a projectile that will basically end up as a flat disc...for example, will look like an Oxyoke Wonderwad...can't imagine it could possibly have any decent aerodynamics, ballistics, accuracy, etc.

I think the smallest slug T/C made for he .45 was a 255grn maxi-hunter and I do know they were extremely accurate out of their shallow groove barrels but they were longer than caliber conicals of course

 

[matt denison]

"... a prototype slug I want to make for the .45 with the same weight as a RB." Will it work?


No. You can use a roundball or you can use a slug but they can't possibly be the same weight.

:surrender:

 

[roundball]

Your words may just be a case of semantics, but technically speaking a ball could be squashed down flat to make a "slug" out of it as opposed to a round sphere, but it would look like a thin over powder wad and IMO have no value at all.

 

[Dphar]

I draw today on the computer a prototype slug I want to make for the .45 with the same weight as a RB.When and if I find the time ,I'll design and make the tooling for them.The idea is to drop a RB in the die and swage it into a slug.Will it work? :idunno:

It can be made to work but there are going to be unacceptable trade offs. For example it will have to be made like a Minie Ball or Foster shotgun slug with a large hollow base.
And then the question.
What is the point?
It has no advantage over the RB and numerous disadvantages.
Dan

 

[paulvallandigham]

Question for clarity: Was your chronograph set within 20 feet of the muzzle for these tests, or out at the 50 yard distance? I am not sure what your new standard actually requires- MV or down range velocity???

The faster you push a ball out of the muzzle, the more drag factor increases, and the faster the ball will slow down. Just because you can get a MV that will deliver the required FPE does not mean that it delivers that same FPE at some distant target.

For instance, Colorado imposed a minimum FPE requirement out at 100 yds, and that is why .50 cal. MLers have to shoot conicals to meet that standard. A .54 cal. RB will meet the standard, easily.

Thanks for posting your data, however. It will help a lot of other shooters who read this forum. :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

P.S. I am surprised you did not try shooting 50, 55, and 65-70 grain powder charges in your .45. My old .45 shot very well, in spite of lack of lands, using 55 grains of FFFg Goex powder. I didn't have a chronograph back then, but the barrel was only 25" long, and I never expected too much velocity from it.

My brother's .45 with a 38 inch barrel shoots well with 65-70 grains of FFFg powder.

Just a thought. :thumbsup:

 

[juancho]

The crony was set 10 feet from the muzzle with adecuate protection to the screens.As for the maximun load, I see no need to go that much more than 60 grains.I have tried up to 100 grains before , but it does not kill any more dead than 60.At least that I can see at the distances I shoot at.
As for the 127 grain slug, yes , it looks like a minie ball. I calculated the mass of it with Cimatron (cad software),and even its center of gravity.THe idea is to shoot a volumetricaly softer bullet (if that makes any sense) than a round ball, to minimize the risk of ricochet with the lowest possible accurate load.Being easier to deform than a RB, they should absorb more energy on impact and fragment in smaller pieces than a RB.
A friend of my brother, made something like that a long time ago but all info on it is now lost .
Out of all the slugs I tried, I like the Remington
Gamemaster .45 285gr for deer and bear.

 

[mr.flintlock]

With a lot of people I believe too much emphasis is on ball speed and not enough on bullet placement.I have posted some of my hunting loads on another board as well as my formula for starting loads and been scoffed at. Two important things are this: Get your rife out and shoot it and find an accurate load at the ranges you will be shooting. The second thing is to shoot as often as you can, build your skills and know your personal limitations with the rifle. I have been hunting with traditional muzzleloading and patched round balls since 1976. I have killed too many deer to mention here and I can tell you one thing for certain. If you put a 45 to 69 caliber ball through both lungs at any speed, you will have a deer down for the count.

 

[Dphar]

With a lot of people I believe too much emphasis is on ball speed and not enough on bullet placement.I have posted some of my hunting loads on another board as well as my formula for starting loads and been scoffed at. Two important things are this: Get your rife out and shoot it and find an accurate load at the ranges you will be shooting. The second thing is to shoot as often as you can, build your skills and know your personal limitations with the rifle. I have been hunting with traditional muzzleloading and patched round balls since 1976. I have killed too many deer to mention here and I can tell you one thing for certain. If you put a 45 to 69 caliber ball through both lungs at any speed, you will have a deer down for the count.

There is a widespread misconception that people shoot heavy loads for power or that shooting a heavy load is not accurate.
People that do the testing find that a probably at least 1/2 the barrels shoot better with heavy loads than light. Sometimes loads that seem shockingly heavy to some shooters.
People also fail to understand trajectory. My hunting rifle is sighted for about 130 yards. The velocity is high enough to allow this. So to about 140-145 yards I can hold at the mid point of a deer, elk or Antelope and know the ball will be in the kill zone. No guess work, hold at the vertical center or maybe a little under the elevation will be "on". This is not possible with low velocity loads.
In many places I hunt 130 yards is not very far.

People who shoot from tree stands don't need the velocity for 10-40 yard shots. At 40 yards a relatively moderate load will have similar impact velocities to a heavy load at 100 or so.

Dan

 

[mr.flintlock]

Dan, And isn't that what I said? I said "Find an accurate load for the ranges that you will be shooting" In areas where you will be shooting 130 yards, of course you will need heavier loads. In areas where you will be shooting at ranges 75 yards or less 130 gr. loads is a waste of powder.

 

[jerrywh]

Dan.
No contention menton my part but I only seek info from you. I have exclusivy used Getz barels for many years until latley with the exception of guns like thompson center's hawken. It has been my experience with .54 cal. and 50 cal. any loads ove about 90 gras of ffg or fffg start to shoot a little wild on me. I usually shoot a prety tight load. IE-- 50cal. = 495 ball with .017patch on 54cal 535 ball with .017 to .020 patch. Any sugestions on your part?
PS I don't worry much about the killing power but I hunt in country like your and need the range.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Dan: I have no doubt at all that out on the high plains, hunting Mule Deer, Elk, and Antelope, that a load that shoots flatter and gives accuracy beyond 100 yds is desireable, if not necessary for most shooters to have a successful hunt.

We flatlanders tend to write advice for the vast majority of whitetail deer hunters who have to find their quarry in the woods, or in edge brush areas around woods, or have no chance of success at all. We use treestands to see OVER the dense brush! As is evident from your pictures, dense brush is hardly a problem. I think the comments added here that recommend finding a good load for the kind of game you are going to hunt, and for the kind of conditions, and ranges you are likely to encounter are good ones.

The chance of you finding a Whitetail deer out in that open mountain country is about the same as mine would be to expect to see an Antelope or Elk wander through the forests where I hunt. :shocked2: :surrender: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[Dphar]

Dan, And isn't that what I said? I said "Find an accurate load for the ranges that you will be shooting" In areas where you will be shooting 130 yards, of course you will need heavier loads. In areas where you will be shooting at ranges 75 yards or less 130 gr. loads is a waste of powder.

Yeah there is not a disagreement...
Its part of the problem with the printed word in discussions of this type. Its often too literal or seems too absolute. I often post things that people take to mean as absolutes when I am posting about some specific or another.

But in a great many cases people never try the heavy loads since some people insist that loads of this level are "too heavy", "why shoot so much powder? Etc.
I changed one of my 50s from 75 to about 100 of FFF Swiss and accuracy improved significantly. It was plenty good for most novelty matches but I seldom shoot these.

Sometimes a slick lube may need significantly more powder. The heavier powder charge increases load inertia and this can reduce shot to shot velocity variations. While is possible to control this in BP cartridge guns by various means there is little to be done in a ML short of more powder or using a higher friction patch lube.
"Blown patch syndrome" can sometimes be cured with more powder though many think its from using too much.

I had a 50 caliber smooth rifle that shot best with 100 gr of ff. Thats as high as I went seeing little point in going higher.
It was far less accurate with 75 gr of FFF.
The only comment I remember concerning Colonial era powder charges I have ever seen mentions 1/2 ball weight of powder. This is in the heavy load class for rifles of 45-58 caliber. Surprisingly calibers over 54 often will use smaller powder charges. Probably because the ball gets significantly heavier as the size increases. A .535 ball weighs about 220 grains a .662 weight 440 and this increases load inertia just from the increase in ball weight. The larger bores use the powder more efficiently and often 1/3 to 1/4 ball weight works quite well in calibers over 62. Gives decent velocity, my 16 bore rifle makes 1600 with 140 gr of FF Swiss behind a 437+- ball.
The old 1 grain per caliber is only useful in Squirrel Rifle calibers. But a lot of people fail to realize this taking it as gospel since it comes down from the past. Where 32 grains is a pretty good load in a 32 caliber 54 gr is a popgun load in a 54 and probably will not shoot well even at 50 yards. Though it would still kill large animals at short range. But minute of deer or minute of 12"-18" steel plate at 50 yards is different that shooting a string measure match.
So it goes back to usage requirements and shooter expectations again.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

Dan.
No contention menton my part but I only seek info from you. I have exclusivy used Getz barels for many years until latley with the exception of guns like thompson center's hawken. It has been my experience with .54 cal. and 50 cal. any loads ove about 90 gras of ffg or fffg start to shoot a little wild on me. I usually shoot a prety tight load. IE-- 50cal. = 495 ball with .017patch on 54cal 535 ball with .017 to .020 patch. Any sugestions on your part?
PS I don't worry much about the killing power but I hunt in country like your and need the range.

Could not tell you. I shoot GM barrels and have a McLemore heavy barrel on the rifle I an trying to get finished but did shoot it in the white at the Cody match the first Sat. Shooting 104gr of FF it won 7 of 10 turkey matches. With same load patch/ball combo my 50 caliber GMs will blow patches with the Dutch Schoultz method the McLemore does not.
McLemore uses an undisclosed gain twist and the barrels are made of 4150. Very uniform bores and really smooth interior finish.
Don't look like it will have finished by Saturday and will likely get shot in the white again if the match is not canceled due to range conflict. Got to get it carved a and the patchbox finished up with catch etc.
If deep round grooves there may be more blowby than you think.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

Shooting hayfield or other Whitetails at 250-300 yards is not uncommon. But not with a flintlock. The last one I remember shooting north of town was 285 yards with the 6.5x55 and I had to low crawl a 50 yards to get it under 300.
South of town in the National Forest shots are more as you would expect. Last year I could have easily killed a small WT with a FL pistol but was using a S&W for backup and saw not point in shooting him with that. And he was really too small, being a large yearly or a scant 2 year old.
Other places I go for WT a ML is basically a waste of time getting within range is REALLY difficult. And this is basically jsut freezer filling anyway.

Dan