Vinegar Stain?

[broken arrow]

Hi all,
I've seen posted here and other forums about people using cider vinegar and old nails/barbwire to make a wood stain. I have tried this and all I get is a useless mix that smells like a bad salad. So this brings me to ask a longwinded question...

If the only cider vinegar that I can find is cut with water to give a 5% acidity, can I slow simmer the vinegar to boil out the water and get a more acitic end product? Or does the acidity boil out as well as the water?

Thanks, dave

 

[mowolf]

Not sure, I have used this for 2 or 3 stocks this past year. What I do is use about a 1" section of iron re-bar to about a cup and half of vinegar and let it "cook" until the iron is completely dissolved, then cut by 50% or more depending on the darkness desired. After "painting with the stain, allow to dry and then heat (I use a hand held propane torch), be very careful not to char or burn the wood. After completing the heat treatment, wash down with a baking soda solution to stop the vinegar (acid) reaction. Complete with your favorite sealer or varnish. Some use Linseed oil, I use Tung oil about 4-5 coats hand rubbed in and lightly steel wool (0000) between each coat.

Waya

 

[broken arrow]

Mowolf,
Mind if I ask you some questions?
Are you using cider vinegar?
What is the acidity of the vinegar that you use?
How long does it take for the rebar to dissolve?
What type of wood are you using it on?
What range of colors can you get?
Do you have any pics of the treated wood?
Thanks, dave

 

[musketman]

What is the acidity of the vinegar that you use?

I thought most cider vinegar has 7% acetic acid...

Vinegar usually has an acid content of between 4 and 8 percent; in flavor it may be sharp, rich, or mellow.

 

Broken arrow,

I have been using this stuff for many years and there are some tricks.

1. it works better on some woods than on others. I have had bad results from only one stock that had been previously "messed with".

2. you can either let the brew age without heat or you can cook the nails in the vinegar. Uncooked will take at least a month to age, cooked will take two weeks.

3. Plain cider vinegar works fine. buy a quart at the grocery. Metal choice is not critical as long as it is rusted.

4. you have to allow the mix to age in a cool dark place for a couple of weeks. (see #2) If you try to use it the day you make it it wil fail every time.

5. use the mixture to whisker the stock. This will raise the fibers and apply the stain at the same time. I usually apply 5/6 coats and steel wool between applications.

6. yes the wood will turn a nasty black color and will get nastier and blacker with each application.

7. when all is complete, all grain fibers are gone and the wood burnished, apply BOILED LINSEED OIL. This is when you should see the contrast of stripe and grain with the final color bursting through. You will see nothing but nasty black wood until you apply the oil! Keep applying the coats of linseed over several days and the finish will actually get deeper.

8. do not try to test this stain on any other wood to see if it will work on your stock. Each wood and grain pattern gives a different color. If you must test the mix use a scrap from the stock itself, a piece big enough to actually see the stripe and grain. One piece of wood may be chocolate brown, the next honey colored, each will be different. It does not work well on the soft maples or on the "kit gun" European birch at all.

I have done stocks from TOTW, Log Cabin, Dixie, Pecontica River and Dunlap and been happy with the results on all of them, so scource is not a consideration.

I look for a warm, natural color, and others might not get enough "glitz" from this stain.

This finish does not appear to be on the surface of the wood like some dyes or stains. It penetrates the wood and makes the colors appear to burst from within the wood.

You will not be plauged with the appearance of artificial color either. Ever see a stock that was brilliantly striped and deeply colored and think "Wood just isn't really that color! What did they do to it?"

Vinegar and rust usually gives a warm real wood tone, attainable by the average tree, with no danger of turning some odd green or pink due to chemical aging over the years.

 

[Zonie]

Sometime in the recient past, there was an article about woods which make good gunstocks. I believe the article was in MuzzleBlasts, but it may have been in Muzzleloader. Unfortunatly, I cannot find it so I can't tell you where to look if your interested.

One of the interesting things it mentioned while talking about Curly Maple is to give a method of determining whether your wood is Soft Maple or Hard Maple.
The method was to desolve some iron filings or steel wool in vinegar and apply it to the wood.
It said if you apply this solution to the Curly Maple, if it turns Green it is Hard Maple. If it turns Blue it is Soft Maple.

I mixed up the solution (it takes a day to desolve even tiny little iron filings) and tried it on the stock I am currently working on. It turned Blue .

Based on what I observed First Hand, I don't think I would use the vinegar method unless I wanted a Blue gun. ::

By the way, Soft Maple is NOT Soft.

 

[broken arrow]

Well, now we are getting differing opinions and experiences. I guess I'll try to mix some up and gamble on it one day.
I like the sounds of it being a soaked in look and not just something laying on the surface. I'm also a tung oil kinda guy. I've used it on several projects and like what I think is the "old time" look of it.
Thanks for the answers, dave

 

Like I said, this stain is not for the impatient or those making production run guns.

1. You must let it age for at least two weeks before use.
You don't drink whisky straight from the spout, don't use this stain straight off the stove.

2. You will not get good color until you whisker the wood and wipe the wood with linseed oil.

3. The color will be different on each gun. This means you cannot promise a customer a given color. That's why many builders use dyes and aquafortis instead of stains.

I have done 25-30 guns with this stuff over the years without a green or blue one in the bunch. One just stayed the nasty gray color, but it was a refinish and had poly' residue in the wood.

I like the more subtle shades due to being into reenactment where the "glitz" is a distraction. The warm colors blend into the background better while still looking good on close examination. I do not want an across the room eye-popper to hang on the wall. My guns go to the woods and sometimes stay there for weeks. The finish has to be natural, durable and easy to retouch.

:results:

 

[Hatcon]

My company uses a vinegar stain on on many of its custom cabinet and doors to impart a natural aged look. We take one gallon of vinegar place it in a 5 gallon bucket with a package of 0000 steel wool. Cover it with a cheese cloth and let it set for around an month or longer then strains the liquid back through the cheese cloth. The water present in the vinegar will take care of the iron oxide by rusting the steel wool and the acid in the vinegar helps the stain to penetrate dense wood.Other types of stain seem to be superficial and usually will not pass a slight scratch test , which is to mildly scrtatch the surface to see if the stain penetrated hence it will be less likley to show minor scratches. I must admit I have never tried this method on gunstocks but I have used it on siding . doors and cabinets made of numerous woods to include oak, maple and cyprus. I do not ever recall it turning blue however anything is possible. Ity usually gives a very pleasant looking old time finish. Also most store bought vinegar is not natural although some are. Check the label. However it does not seem to matter as I have used both. Hope this helps.

 

[mowolf]

OK, using normal Wally world white vinegar, 5%. 1" piece of rebar takes about 2 months to dissolve in a cup-cup and half of vinegar. I used it to refinsh my .45 Investarms Hawkin, I cut the mixture by 50% with water. I also did a CVA Mt Pistol (new, no prior finish) with it uncut. Turned the pistol dark brown with a deep finish. Used Tung oil 4-5 coats to finish em off. I posted pics on her from Photobucket last fall, now I for got how to post them.

Waya Hawkin .45

 

[Zonie]

For those interested in my source, the article on gunstock woods is in the Jan/Feb 2004 issue of MUZZLELOADER, ref pages 61-65.

The main difference between the stain Ghost etc are talking about is they aged it. The stuff which turned my Curly Maple stock blue was only a few days old.
I'm not saying that vinigar/steel solutions will not turn your guns a nice brown. Perhaps it will if it is aged properly.
Then on the other hand, if it turns soft maple blue and hard maple green, maybe it turns other maple brown?

I added :m2c: only because I read about it, I tried it and it did what the article said it would do so I felt it was fair to forwarn you about what it might do to your stock. ::

 

[CrackStock]

I would assume that you degrease the steel wool in some manner?

Do you have some preference in selecting the vinegar?

Also, do you blush with heat like aquafortis or let stand when you use the stain? Do you work it back with steel wool when applying the BLO or simply wipe on the oil as is?

CS

 

[Metalshaper]

Broken Arrow,

I wonder what the affect would be, to use 'Glacial' Acetic acid??< the high strength stuff> I have access, to a supply of this and other acids, because I'm a lab tech. It could always be dilued down, after it has had the chance to digest the steel wool.

Just curious??

Respect Always
Metalshaper

 

[broken arrow]

Metalshaper,
I would guess that the stronger acid would work better, but I don't know for sure. That's kinda what I was getting at with the "boiling" question. Maybe (since you're in the business) you could ask around and find out if the water will evap out or if it also loses some acidity.
In the meantime, I bought a pint of apple cider vinegar 5% acidity yesterday. I'm going to start processing it today.
Thanks, dave

 

[broken arrow]

OK, for anyone interested I have started my "brew".
I put 6, 1 inch pieces of 3/8 rebar (rusty) in an empty quart size vinegar bottle.
Then added 1 pint of apple cider vinegar (5% solution) to the bottle.
Then put the bottle (UNCAPPED) in a small pan of water and brought the water up to a slow boil.
Then turned the temp down to a simmer and let it cook for 1/2 hour.
Then turn off heat and let it sit until cool.
Then placed a folded piece of cloth over the bottle top held on with a rubber band, and put the bottle up on a shelf to age.
So far I can tell that the solution is MUCH darker than a new bottle of the cider vinegar (I have a new bottle sitting beside it for comparison) in the 12 or so hours it has been brewing. And the pieces of rebar are considerably smaller than when I started.
An interesting thing to me was that as soon as the vineger started heating up the cut ends of the rebar started emitting (?) a steady stream of very tiny bubbles and this continued for several hours (and that is why you don't want to cork the bottle tight).
I'll keep you updated as it cooks.
Thanks, dave

 

[mule ear]

This has been an interesting discussion - it actually caused me to think!
Rather than concentration, I think the more important characteristic would be pH - the ability of acid molecules to disassociate (split-up) with each other and react with still other molecules. Concentration merely tells us how many molecules are available to react, but doesn't change the pH. Both can be measures of "strength." Boiling concentrates molecules, but doesn't change their pH.
Out of curiosity, I found the pH of vinegar to be 4.8, mildly acidic. I have not had the time to look up the pH of Nitric acid; intuition (always dangerous!) tells me it is in the same mildly acidic range.
Interesting, (follow the thread) the pH of urine is 4.8 to 8, being more concentrated first void in the AM - about the same pH as vinegar. Consider also the differences in diet 200 - 250 years ago. This info could explain references I have seen about traditional stock stains made from urine. I suspect that iron would have a similar reaction with urine, producing a stain. HOWEVER - Talk about "randy"!!!!! Personally, given the choice between being PC verses today's STDs, I'll stick with vinegar, thank you very much!! (The foregoing has been posted for historical perspective only! Do not try this at home without adult supervision. :winking: )
Metalshaper: :imo: I would expect glacetal acetic acid to react with the iron much faster, but will have to be diluted many, many times (after aging it) to make a workable stain. The only advantage I can imagine would be the ability to dissolve more iron, (higher concentration = more molecules to react with iron) producing a redder stain - if that is the objective. Neutralizing it would be a must. If you wanted brownish, more vinegar would have to be added, perhaps defeating the initial use of glacial acetic acid. Faster???? Better???? Worth it????? Dangerous???? :: Definately more complicated.
Broken arrow: I have some real wrought iron and I'm going to start my brew this weekend. I'll be interested to hear of your progress.
Thanks for sharing, ya'll!

 

[TANSTAAFL]

"Interesting, (follow the thread) the pH of urine is 4.8 to 8, being more concentrated first void in the AM - about the same pH as vinegar."

Small wonder I get "urinated" :curse: when I put too much Balsamic vinegar on me salad.

 

[bob1961]

anyone have any pictures of the finished stain color on a stock....and can you add food coloring to make the stain more of a red color so to say..................bob

 

[mule ear]

Dave: Here's an update on my progress FYI. I made up my brew two nights ago using what I thought (assumed?) reliably to be wrought iron and cooked it like yours. Simmered several hours at about 170 degrees F as measured by a extremely accurate and recently laboratory-calibrated (to within 0.00005 degrees F) candy thermometer. :: The iron came from the runner supports and bolts from a what appeared to be a late 1800s child's sled I found while bird hunting. I avoided rebar because I think it is made from recycled metal, and may contain manganese. After several hours of simmering, the metal has not shown any tendancy to disolve - yet. There is great cloudiness (aka "junk") in my jug, but the color of the vinegar hasn't changed much. :: Within the first hour, I saw bubbles streaming off the cut ends of the bar, so I thought I was off to a GREAT start, like a galloping herd of turtles. :: It looks like the cloudiness is from the dissolved rust. :hmm: I'm hoping that aging will help my concoction. Perhaps, it needs some urine! I'm wondering now if filtering the brew with a coffee filter before use may be advisable.

Bob 1961: :imo: I don't know enough about it, but food coloring may not be color stable. Don't know if I would want to try it on a good rifle. Save it for a huge slab of chocolate cake!

 

[squirejohn]

All this discussion about cider vinegar seems to relate to pH and the dissolving of iron to make a stain. In the Nov. 2000 issue of ML there was an article on stock finishes which called for 2 1/2 0z of linseed oil, 1 oz turps and 1 teaspoon of cider vinegar. What purpose do you suppose the vinegar was for in this stock finish? ::