Vintage rifle for modern Soldier

[KSC]

Through reading about Robert Rogers (and of course watching The Patriot), I've developed a desire to own and learn how to use a Kentucky/Pennsylvania rifle. I guess I have a desire to get back to the special ops roots. I'm currently in a long and time consuming training cycle so I don't have too much time to research it properly. By next year I'd like to be able to lay a deer down confidently at 100 yards- is this feasible with this type of weapon? Would a .50 cal be sufficient and how much would I need to spend for a rifle that would do the job? I'm very proficient with weapons and ballistics so if the weapon is capable, the human side of the equation should be up to par within a few months.
Thanks.

 

[colmoultrie]

If you have the time to wait, like you said, and you have a bit of spare change...

I'd recommend that you first buy a good picture book, like Shumway's Rifles of Colonial America,vol 1, or Kindig's Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in its Golden Age. Spend at least a month just looking at the pictures and seeing which rifles you keep turning back to each time (for me it was the Fries rifle on p. 151? of Kindig - a Bucks County rifle).

Then contact one or more of the gunmakers on this forum - no, I don't know their wait times - and talk to them about the design and your thoughts. Find the one with whom you are most comfortable, and whose timeframe you can deal with, and send him a deposit.

I'd recommend Allen Martin's work from personal experience, but his wait time is far longer than a year. In the semi-custom realm, Toni and Matt from TVM are great to deal with.

Just from seeing pictures of their work, I'd say you certainly wouldn't go wrong with Mike Brooks, Roy Stroh, or Fred Lehto either, or Cooner 54. (My apologies to those I've neglected to mention.)

Can you get a nice production gun? It depends on how historically correct you want to be, and what compromises you want to make with your budget. If you want a piece that really looks like it could have been carried out of the pages of history (or a James Fenimore Cooper novel), then you probably want a gunmaker to make you one. I've seen some nice production guns, but there is a difference.

 

[wvbuckbuster]

Hi and welcome! Glad you have an intrest in black powder guns. First I would say don't get in a hurry and buy the first gun you see. Look and see what is out there. Second buy what you can aford. Like buying a car the more features the more the price( production guns will do the job but you get more of a choice if you go custom) Third .50 caliber is enough for the hunting of deer but bigger is better such as .54 Some even like bigger bore sizes. Anything bigger than a .50 will just give you more knock down and provide for cleaner kills when shot placement is correct. I guess you intend to shoot a patched round ball since you are looking at the long rifle style. These are just some of my thoughts and what works for me and I know others will give you theirs as well. Hope you enjoy your travel thru shooting and hunting with black powder arms! :thumbsup:

 

[Doc Rogers]

TVM is great to deal with. Toni and Matt are super.

A little research is in order to figure out exactly what you want.

Who are you with and where are you stationed currently?

Doc

 

[cowpoke1955]

Hi KSC,
Welcome to the forum. Like was mentioned before, .50 cal. is nice, but .54 cal is better. If you ever plan to hunt elk, bears or pigs, that little bit of extra lead is nice to have. With the price of production guns going up you might as well look at the custom or semi-custom rifles. Two places I know of are Early Rustic Arms:[url] http://www.earlyrusticarms.com/index.html[/url] and TVM:[url] http://www.avsia.com/tvm/[/url] . These are a couple of good places to start looking. Good luck on your search :thumbsup: .

 

[Bubba45]

Another name I would throw into the hat of fine makers is Steve Zihn. :thumbsup:

 

[Doc Rogers]

I should have mentioned that 0.62 is even better than 0.54

At least that is what I have coming. Should be able to handle anything I want to hunt without killing my shoulder every time I set it off!

Doc

 

[Dphar]

Through reading about Robert Rogers (and of course watching The Patriot), I've developed a desire to own and learn how to use a Kentucky/Pennsylvania rifle. I guess I have a desire to get back to the special ops roots. I'm currently in a long and time consuming training cycle so I don't have too much time to research it properly. By next year I'd like to be able to lay a deer down confidently at 100 yards- is this feasible with this type of weapon? Would a .50 cal be sufficient and how much would I need to spend for a rifle that would do the job? I'm very proficient with weapons and ballistics so if the weapon is capable, the human side of the equation should be up to par within a few months.
Thanks.

I have killed deer to 140-150 yards with 50 and 54 flintlocks when my eyes were younger, but 100 is a lot more reasonable.
The rifle will do it with a patched round ball its all in practicing till you can. If you have never shot flint before there will be some "adjustment" time and a learning curve in keeping it working right.
There are many options for rifles.
If you want a good representation of a 1770-1780 Kentucky its not cheap but they never really were. But the GOOD guns do not depreciate as the cheap ones do so it is can be seen as an investment. The parts for a good gun cost more than a finished cheap one.
If you can obtain some books on colonial rifles through inter library loan you can learn without much investment.
Rifles of Colonial America has a good selection of rifles.
Kindig"s book Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in Its Golden Age is good but he was "off" in some things.
The Frontier Rifleman is place to start. Its something you can buy without too much outlay.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

I should have mentioned that 0.62 is even better than 0.54

At least that is what I have coming. Should be able to handle anything I want to hunt without killing my shoulder every time I set it off!

Doc

If not stocked right or too light 62s can be "unfun" according to a friend.

Dan

 

[MikeChapin]

A .50 will do the job nicely out to 100 yards. I use that range as my maximum because that is where I am confident of a one shot kill with open iron sights. I have yet to shoot one at that distance, most have been taken in the 25-60 yard range with a few at 70-75 yards.

There are a few production rifles that fall into the long barreled, fullstock flintlock class. These are not really reproductions of anything but have some of the lines and handling characteristics of the Pennsylvania-Kentucky style. These will generally run from $600 to $1000.

The next step is a semi-custom from TVM and others. These run $1200 and up but are more authentic than the production rifles. Many have swamped barrels and premium locks.

A full custom is the most expensive. A plain rifle, with a little incised carving from a maker like Steve Zihn will run you about $1500+. Many of these makers have a good sized backlog so you may wait up to a year to get it. These rifles are generally made with premium barrels and the best locks and other components. Many of them are works of art.

Any of the rifles, production to custom, will do the job on a deer. You have to decide what you want and how much you want to invest.

 

[squirejohn]

You cannot go wrong with a custom or semi custom rifle. However if your impatient like me an off the shelf Blue Ridge from Cabelas is "in the spirit" of a "Kentucy/Pa" rifle. They're made by Pedersoli and are reliable and affordable.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Through reading about Robert Rogers (and of course watching The Patriot), I've developed a desire to own and learn how to use a Kentucky/Pennsylvania rifle. I guess I have a desire to get back to the special ops roots.

For what it's worth, there may not have been a rifle among Rogers Rangers units. They's have been using the First Model Long Land Pattern - the smoothbore Bess musket in .75 cal +/-. Possibly a few would have had Jaeger rifles, but they'd a been uncommon and most likely not a Pennsylvania style rifle in the bunch.

They were a military unit and not self equipped.
[url] http://www.rogersrangers.com/rangers history.html[/url]

Look into the "Pioneer" units of the Revolution if you want to find some riflemen. They were the forward scouts and counter-sniper cover to guard from Indians picking off the road-clearing details and supply chains.

 

[PvtC]

Knowing what I know now and having to start over again I would:

1. Buy a Cabela's, Thompson Center, Lyman, or RMC half stock to have something servicable to hunt with for 2 or 3 years.

2. Save $600 and buy a Lancaster or Virginia rifle kit (.54 or .58 cal) from Jim Chambers

3. Employ a reputable builder to put the Chambers kit together in a neat manner. This will set you back another $1000-1500 and you'll probably wait 2 or 3 years but you'll be glad you did.


Danny Caywood can turn around a very neatly fit and finished smoothbore or short rifle in about 3 months for $1150-$1750. Unfortunately his only kentucky long rifle goes for > 10k$ :shocked2:

 

[PvtC]

A correction. Chambers kits will be about $875 with a barrel.

 

[Coot]

A few thoughts on your post:

A .50 cal will do for deer out to 100 yds but that is a good working max for a 50 & primitive sights. I do not know where you plan to hunt but here in central Va, most shots are well under 100 yds.

Pedersoli is a manufacturer that comes to mind with an "in the box" longrifle. Their rifle is well made but a "generic" or "with the looks of" design. It works well & will be acceptable at most events but is not a historically correct gun.

A custom gun by a good maker is not going to happen within you one year timeframe. You need to do your research & make decisions about hunting & reenactment use before you put the required time & money into a custom gun. Perhaps custom should be considered for a later buy.

You might want to watch the TOW (Track of the Wolf) website for guns on consignment. TOW has really good photos & they will help you get a feel for values. For that matter, you may find a gun there that is close enough to what you want & available without the custom wait.

A visit to Dixons Gunmakers Fair is well worthwhile if you can fit it into your schedule. There will be a selection of good guns there that you can evaluate & possibly find either a ready made gun or a maker whose work you like.

A Thompson Center Hawken or Lyman Great Plains in .50 or .54 flint would not be a bad idea. They are generic "Hawken" types so not your longrifle but you could use one to learn about the 'flint flitch' and it will do nicely for deer. Get a nice used one, at a good price, take good care of it, & sell it for what you have in it when you find the longrifle.

Others may have differing suggestions - lots of ideas on the forum......

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Through reading about Robert Rogers (and of course watching The Patriot), I've developed a desire to own and learn how to use a Kentucky/Pennsylvania rifle. I guess I have a desire to get back to the special ops roots. I'm currently in a long and time consuming training cycle so I don't have too much time to research it properly. By next year I'd like to be able to lay a deer down confidently at 100 yards- is this feasible with this type of weapon? Would a .50 cal be sufficient and how much would I need to spend for a rifle that would do the job? I'm very proficient with weapons and ballistics so if the weapon is capable, the human side of the equation should be up to par within a few months.
Thanks.

A .50 is fine and a .54 is better. How big is your budget? It is wise to buy the very best rifle you can afford, even if you have to stretch your finances a bit. The quality will be there long after the price has been forgotten, and a cheap flintlock is a wretched thing to have to live with. I think that I would watch Track's web-site for a while and get a feel for prices. They are good folks to talk to and have a good selection.
Most custom builders will have a fairly long delivery time--usually well over a year and often over two years. This to be expected and is reasonable--quality work takes time and folks will be happy to wait for a fine gun. This makes a used custom rifle from a reputable source a bargain. With the prices for decent mass production guns climbing as they are, a nice used custom makes a lot of sense, both as a shooter and as a valuable asset and family heirloom. If it was me, this is the way that I would go.

 

[Russianblood]

Through reading about Robert Rogers (and of course watching The Patriot), I've developed a desire to own and learn how to use a Kentucky/Pennsylvania rifle. I guess I have a desire to get back to the special ops roots.

For what it's worth, there may not have been a rifle among Rogers Rangers units. They's have been using the First Model Long Land Pattern - the smoothbore Bess musket in .75 cal +/-. Possibly a few would have had Jaeger rifles, but they'd a been uncommon and most likely not a Pennsylvania style rifle in the bunch.

They were a military unit and not self equipped.
[url] http://www.rogersrangers.com/rangers history.html[/url]

Look into the "Pioneer" units of the Revolution if you want to find some riflemen. They were the forward scouts and counter-sniper cover to guard from Indians picking off the road-clearing details and supply chains.

Actually, it's documented that the rangers used rifles and most ranger units did provide their own arms and were not armed by the king. The problem is there is no description of what the rifles that they carried looked like.

 

[Okwaho]

For what it's worth, there may not have been a rifle among Rogers Rangers units. They's have been using the First Model Long Land Pattern - the smoothbore Bess musket in .75 cal +/-. Possibly a few would have had Jaeger rifles, but they'd a been uncommon and most likely not a Pennsylvania style rifle in the bunch.

They were a military unit and not self equipped.
[url] http://www.rogersrangers.com/rangers history.html[/url]

Look into the "Pioneer" units of the Revolution if you want to find some riflemen. They were the forward scouts and counter-sniper cover to guard from Indians picking off the road-clearing details and supply chains.

Actually, it's documented that the rangers used rifles and most ranger units did provide their own arms and were not armed by the king. The problem is there is no description of what the rifles that they carried looked like.

Hawkeye,I would be most appreciative if you would provide the documentation for your paragraph in response to Stumpkiller.So far virtually all of the physical evidence we have on arms of Roger's Rangers has been from Rogers Island where a number of barrel sections from Long Land Pattern muskets{the only ones used by the British at that time} as well as other parts have been recovered.I do not question the use of rifles in the F&I War but in my opinion they were very few indeed.As a longtime student of the Kentucky rifle,I,as well as other students and collectors,would welcome any solid information on the manufacture and use of American long rifles during this period and in this area.
Tom Patton

 

[XXX]

For what it's worth, there may not have been a rifle among Rogers Rangers units. They's have been using the First Model Long Land Pattern - the smoothbore Bess musket in .75 cal +/-. Possibly a few would have had Jaeger rifles, but they'd a been uncommon and most likely not a Pennsylvania style rifle in the bunch.

They were a military unit and not self equipped.
[url] http://www.rogersrangers.com/rangers history.html[/url]

Look into the "Pioneer" units of the Revolution if you want to find some riflemen. They were the forward scouts and counter-sniper cover to guard from Indians picking off the road-clearing details and supply chains.

Actually, it's documented that the rangers used rifles and most ranger units did provide their own arms and were not armed by the king. The problem is there is no description of what the rifles that they carried looked like.

Hawkeye,I would be most appreciative if you would provide the documentation for your paragraph in response to Stumpkiller.So far virtually all of the physical evidence we have on arms of Roger's Rangers has been from Rogers Island where a number of barrel sections from Long Land Pattern muskets{the only ones used by the British at that time} as well as other parts have been recovered.I do not question the use of rifles in the F&I War but in my opinion they were very few indeed.As a longtime student of the Kentucky rifle,I,as well as other students and collectors,would welcome any solid information on the manufacture and use of American long rifles during this period and in this area.
Tom Patton

He is making the same case that is put forward in this Osprey book;

American Colonial Ranger: The Northern Colonies, 1724-64 (Warrior)

The author makes ref to several primary sources describing RR using rifles. There is a conjectured example displayed on the Ranger Weapons plate and specific discussion as to what such a weapon probably looked like since there is no definative description beyond the word rifle. It is stated in the text that they were most definately not Jaeger rifles, though I don't know how he could be so sure. I think the author's email address is listed on the book, I will check into it when I get home. The book is not limited exclusively to RR. Pontiac War frontier rangers are also discussed and depicted and at least one is drawn with a Penn longrifle based upon the Bouquet expedition. The RR rifle discussion in the text also includes the text of a momorandum issued by a provincial authority in New Hampshire encouraging perspective ranger recruits to obtain thier own weapons from private sources as the Kings weapons were too heavy (cumbersome) for ranger use.

 

[Russianblood]

Ranger volunteers who served as cadets with Rogers' Rangers were all issued with "riffle-barrel Fuzees" though they were ordered to return these weapons to the Ordnance Stores when they rejoined their parent units.

I got this information from Stephen Brumwell's "White Devil". He also states that metal detector exploration of suspected ranger skirmish sites have unearthed both musket and rifle balls.

Captain-Lieutenant Henry Pringle of the 27th Foot, or Inniskilling Regiment wrote home to Ireland on December 15, 1757 about the Rangers at Ft. Edward:

"They shoot amazingly well, all Ball,& mostly with riffled Barrels."

The full quote of the letter can be found on page 101 of "White Devil".

Is this good enough documentation that Rangers did use rifles?