Virginia rifles

[Magungo1066]

Anyone have any knowledge of rifles that were built in Virginia around the time of the revolution? I went to school in Southern Virginia and think it would be cool to have a rifle that represents something that may have been made in that general area. Thanks!

 

[tnlonghunter]

Here are some rifles and writing about the subject. I had the same question as I started my current build. There are known builders from all over the central VA valley, but I honestly can't quite recall if any were dated at the time of the revolution.

http://www.flintriflesmith.com/WritingandResearch/WebArticles/VirginiaRifle.htm
https://www.nmlra.org/news/OriginalVARifle1750s

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Ah, the mysterious early Virginia rifle. RCA #2 has examples of several rifles likely made in Virginia. A lot of folks today focus on the "Faber" rifle as the quintessential example but there were other styles. What there is no evidence for are what we now call iron mounted mountain rifles. The surviving ones are mostly 19th century creations. There is one iron mounted rifle, the Tiletson gun, that may be from the 1770s and southern made (that is disputed by some) but the mounts look more like the typical cast brass parts than any later mountain rifles. There is not a lot distinguishing many Virginia-made rifles from Pennsylvania-made rifles of the period. A lot have German styling with brass mounts although there is often more English influence on the rifles. Curiously, the "Hannah" rifle shown in the post above was not identified as such by its previous owner, George Shumway, author of "Rifles in Colonial America". He did not think the patch box was original to the gun nor did he indicate it was a "Virginia" gun. He just suggested it was southern because of the English styling. He did not attribute it to any "Hannah" gun maker. I wonder where that attribution comes from. There is a famous and roughly similar rifle shown in RCA #2 in the Colonial Williamsburg collection previously attributed to a Virginia maker. That notion was revised recently and many now believe the rifle was made by John Newcomer of Pennsylvania.

dave

 

[Art Caputo]

This article provides some info pertaining to Virginia rifles in the time oeriod you are interested.

https://scavengeology.com/early-ame...les-part-ii-of-our-american-longrifle-series/

 

[rich pierce]

Early rifles in volume 2 of Shumway’s Rifles of Colonial America now more strongly attributed to Virginia include:

RCA 103 known as the Brass Barreled Rifle

RCA 117 the Faber rifle

RCA 118

RCA 123 the Klette rifle

RCA 124

RCA 131 the Haymaker rifle.

in addition Wallace Gusler has written a series of articles on:
The Woodsrunner rifle
The Old Holston rifle- walnut stocked and iron mounted.

As one can see by the disparate styling of these guns, 1) they bear no resemblance to what many kit sellers and gunmakers describe as “early Virginia” and 2) they are as different from each other as contemporaneous Christians Spring, Lancaster, Reading, and York rifles of the Revolutionary War period are from each other. This dispels any notion of a unified “early Virginia” style as much as an “early Pennsylvania” style.

 

[Coot]

Anyone have any knowledge of rifles that were built in Virginia around the time of the revolution? I went to school in Southern Virginia and think it would be cool to have a rifle that represents something that may have been made in that general area. Thanks!

Whisker's books - "Gunsmiths of Virginia" and "Long Rifles of Virginia" have much much more on post Revwar guns & gunsmiths than pre war. Activity around the 1760-1780 timeframe seems to be largely concentrated around the upper Shenandoah valley & in the James River basin rather than southern or southwestern VA. The "Haymaker" as already mentioned, and a John Davidson gun from Rockbridge Co. give an idea of the general types.

 

[oldwood]

The Johannas Faber rifle Charlotsville , Va. Has almost a twin from Pa. , Excluding the Faber side plate , a Valentine Fondersmith , Lancaster , Pa. , rifle is a close rifle to Faber , but hosts a Lancaster side plate. The one we copied was the Faber model from one in a KRA collection., but have no clue which one was the first to be made. I hunt w/my copy and love it's Jageristic lines. Simple claim the Fabre rifle was by legend , used in the Battle of Point Pleasant , Dunmore's War , first battle of the American Revolution rifle is enough for me to like the rifle. ...........oldwood

 

[rich pierce]

Old wood, who the heck are you lol? You know your stuff.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Can anyone update me on the "Hannah" attribution for RCA 118? Was it something Wallace Gusler suggested?

dave

 

[Magungo1066]

Thanks for all the input everyone! i have a lot of reading to do

 

[oldwood]

Rich....Who am I ?? I'm a fortunate old guy that was looking for something else to do besides modern firearms when out of tech school in 1970. Out of a dog eared 1/2 " thick Dixie Catalog I ordered one of Turners " Hawkin" rifle diagrams printed on news print paper. Scratch built that and the race was on. Eventually was able to buy most of Geo. Shumway's books to study , and became psychologically unbalanced toward being totally overtaken w/ everything 18th century , guns , shot pouches , history , flintlock deer hunting , restoring originals etc.. etc. Have perhaps 2+ wheelbarrows of books on all subjects muzzleloading ,and "East-of -the Mississippi " history , mostly pre-1840. Timing had a lot to do w/ how things came to me. I'm eternally thankful to so many famous folks who mentored my efforts between the early 1970's and through the early 1990's. One question some of my old friends and fellows ask ourselves is , "where have all the hundreds of guns we built gone?" I've got about 150 out there scattered over the USA , and I'm only one guy. Had one guy from Baltimore that would send me scratch parts to build 10 guns at a time. A mutual friend who knew him well ,later visited his collection and our mutual friend said the guy had every rifle I had ever built for him plus a ton of guns built by other contemporary builders. Where did this collection go?? Been blessed to be able to continue building rifles for a while. Before the chinese virus hit us, I was teaching two other fellows how I build a m/l gun. That's great fun. Well , any way , the Forum allows me to occasionally help others. It's been a blessing. Wish you well.. If I can help , let me know........ oldwood

 

[Art Caputo]

The Chambers, Mark Silver representation of the Pre/Revolutionary period Virginia Rifle.

https://www.flintlocks.com/rifles04.htm

 

[hanshi]

I had a Va. rifle some years back, a nice one. There really isn't all that much to separate them from Pa. rifles. But similarity doesn't mean identical.

 

[rich pierce]

The Chambers, Mark Silver representation of the Pre/Revolutionary period Virginia Rifle.

https://www.flintlocks.com/rifles04.htm

I forget which original rifle this is based on. Is it the Faber rifle?

 

[Art Caputo]

I forget which original rifle this is based on. Is it the Faber rifle?

Chambers doesn’t state specifically in their information, but the Faber rifle is speculated to be one of the earliest samples, and to have originated in the James Basin area... I suspect it may be based on the Faber rifle.

 

[Art Caputo]

I’ve have owned this “Early Virginia Rifle” rifle, built by Jack Hubbard, acquired about 15 years ago. Whether a bonafide copy of an original or not, it is one of my favorite rifles.

 

[oldwood]

Valintine Fondersmith........Lancaster , Pa. , and Johannas Faber......Staunton , Va. , are near identical rifles except the side plate on the Faber rifle is different from the Lancaster side plate on the Fondersmith rifle. There are photo's in different books describing thie difference. ..oldwood

 

[rich pierce]

I’ve wanted to make a Fondersmith rifle for some time. Better get to it. According to Shumway the Fondersmith twin brothers were born in 1746. So it is possible they could have been actively building rifles by the mid 1760s and journeymen running their own businesses by 1770.
In the 1980s timeframe when Rifles of Colonial America books were written some broad brush assumptions were being applied. A gun with a hint of English styling and an English lock “must have been made in the South.” An emphasis on “schools” led many outlier rifles to be “attributed elsewhere”. Now we know that there were Lancaster builders like Fainot, the Fondersmith brothers, and Newcomer who had distinctive styles of their own.

In the 1980s timeframe when Rifles of Colonial America books were written some broad brush assumptions were being applied. A gun with a hint of English styling and an English lock “must have been made in the South.” An emphasis on “schools” led many outlier rifles to be “attributed elsewhere”. Now we know that there were Lancaster builders like Fainot, the Fondersmith brothers, and Newcomer who had distinctive styles of their own.

As I compare the Faber rifle in Rifles of Colonial America volume 2, #117, and #74 by Valentine Fondersmith in volume 1, the stock profiles are very similar but the Faber rifle looks 10-20 years earlier in styling. Like an early Dickert compared to an 1800 or the 1807 Dickert.
In the 1980s timeframe when Rifles of Colonial America books were written some broad brush assumptions were being applied. A gun with a hint of English styling and an English lock “must have been made in the South.” An emphasis on “schools” led many outlier rifles to be “attributed elsewhere”. Now we know that there were Lancaster builders like Fainot, the Fondersmith brothers, and Newcomer who had distinctive styles of their own.
For those without the resources, the Faber rifle is unsigned except for a name on the sideplate which is thought to be the owner.

 

[oldwood]

To add to the "soup of history" , let us not forget the Moravian gunshop planted in Bethabara near Ashville , N.C. Think it dates to 1752 , two years after founding the Moravian shops near Bethlehem , Pa.. . These fellows started out building eastern European , Jagerish type rifles until hunters came to their shop and informed the Brothers that , big cal. , short barreled rifles , suited for European hunting ,were inadequate for hunting this side of the Atlantic. The brotherhood remodeled the rifles they were used to building , and we have , no doubt a long barreled , thrifty on powder and lead , non English , Germanic looking American long rifle built where?? In the deep south. The mission statement of the Moravian's included that they could train new gunsmiths in the arts of gunsmithing , as needed. So , why wouldn't these Germanic influence Bethabara trained smiths have spread out wherever they could have made a lively hood ? Not all southern guns came from English influence. ...............oldwood

 

[Artificer]

Anyone have any knowledge of rifles that were built in Virginia around the time of the revolution? I went to school in Southern Virginia and think it would be cool to have a rifle that represents something that may have been made in that general area. Thanks!

Can't add much to the excellent info already given, but you may enjoy this article:

What's a Virginia Rifle? (flintriflesmith.com)

Gus