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Are felt wads any better than fiber wads? Lubed/unlubed? thickness of overpowder cards?thickness of over shot cards? HELP! I'm a smoothie-newbie who wants to get his new 20 bore out to the patterning bench and then into the woods ASAP! I'm looking for any and ALL help I can get in the way of suggestions and advice related to this endeavor. I thank you heartily in advance.
 
Marc. Welcome to Smoothbores, and your 20 ga. Are you also new to flintlocks?

First, read Bob Spenser's Black Powder Notebook, and particularly the articles by V.M. Starr on Shotgun loads.

[url] http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html[/url]

Vegatble Fiber wads are generally used to protect the base of lead bullets, are usually fairly thin, and are not a good seal for over the Powder. Go To Track of the Wolf's link here( above- member services) and check out their catalogue on wads. You can buy them elsewhere, and other suppliers are also linked here for your convenience.

Overpowder cards are stiff, made of cardboard, and are 1/8 inch thick: You want to use them to seal the bore of the barrel. Measure the bore of you 20 with a caliper to make sure you are ordering the correct size wads. If the bore is undersized, you may have to order 21 gauge; if oversized, as mine is, then 19 ga. wads. Felt wads are usually sold impregnated with Wonder Lube, or NL 1000, Or Young Country 1000 lube, or Bore Butter, all names for the same product. They are made of wool felt, are not as stiff or hard as the card wads, and don't seal the bore as well. Gas leaks lead to a reduction in velocity. lower chamber pressures, and inefficient burning of powder, giving you a wide variety of velocities, shot to shot, and poor patterns generally. Seal the gas with a card wad.

Next, you want to use some kind of wad with lubricant, to grease the barrel so that the powder residue coming out the barrel behind it will be softened and can't cake on the bore. We usually use cushion wads, which are about 1/2 " thick. But, most find that the thickness, and the extra weight that occurs when these are soaked in liquid lubes makes the wad so heavy that it travels with the shot, and actually will push a hole in the center of the pattern. So, most of have gone to splitting the cushion wads in half, after they are lubricated, and loading only half a lubed cushion wad down on top of the card wad. You want a good jag with a flat end to load these wads, so they remain square to the bore. As added insurance, I then place an overshot card- a very thin but hard, and slick finished wafer- on top of my cushion wad, so that the shot does not penetrate and stick in the cushion wad. The wafer also makes sure that the shot is pushed out of the barrel square to the bore, so that I get more consistent patterns, and patterns that are more uniformly round. Other shooter skip this step, and just load the shot on top of the cushion wad.

Finally, after loading the load of shot, put an overshot card on top of the shot to keep it in the barrel. I use an awl to poke a small hole in the wafer before heading to the range, so that air escapes through the hole, and not out a turned edge. This facilitates( eases) running the wafer down the barrel, and protects the edges so they consistently make contact around the entire inside of the barrel. That also keeps the shot leaving the barrel square to the bore, and helps patterns.

Get a good powder measure, and then when you choose the size shot you intend to use, check the volume measure with an actually scale to see how much shot, by weight, you have actually poured into that measure. You will find that as the size of the shot gots bigger, You will have to adjust our powder measure to throw more shot to throw the same weight of shot as you did with a different setting, but using a smaller size shot. For example. I shoot #8 shot for targets, and use #5 for hunting Pheasants and other game birds, except Dove, where I stay with #8. #8 shot is only .009" in diameter, while #5 shot is .012" in diameter. If I load both into my adjustable powder measure which has a 1/2 inch diameter, the same setting will throw less weight of the #5 shot than the #8 shot it throws by weight. In order to know what kind of performance you will be able to expect from a given load, recommended here, or in the articles I have recommended for you, you have to know exactly what weight of shot you are going to push out of the gun with a given powder charge.

You will be hard pressed to find anyone recommending any kind of powder other than Black Powder for use in your flintlock Smoothbore. With a 20 ga. you can use either FFg. or FFFg. You don't really have to buy FFFFg priming powder for the gun, but can prime your pan with either of the larger grained powders that you choose to use in the main charge.

You might benefit from reading my article on Flintlocks,
[url] www.chuckhawks.com/flintlocks.htm.[/url]

to get you started on loading procedures and help you get that gun firing every time, and quickly. Give yourself time to get used to shooting flints. I would not expect to be able to take it hunting this Fall, as you have a lot of learning to do first, before you can have reliable shooting in the field. Don't take short cuts. They only lead to misfires, and your frustration. Smoothbores are a gentleman's gun, and are not speed shooters. Enoy the care with which you load the gun, as much as you enjoy firing it at a rising bird.
 
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there are probably a thousand posts on this subject here, learn how to use the search feature and youll find more info than youl ever need and be able to sort out all the "what i use is".. to get to the basics.. cold weather can have different load than summer. patterning with paper on pattern board is essencial for shot, and then pennetration tests on campels soup can to make sure you have the power at the distance you need for the critter your after(with shot).. your not going out and buying a shell that says ducks, or pheasant , or turkey on it.. your starting from scratch and you need to test your loads for pattern, impact point, and pennetration.. dave
 
Marc,
I'll keep this short..... :winking:
Every gun is different, you're going to have to spend a bunch of time at the pattern board to get it straightened out.
I've found fiber wads in some guns will create a hole in the center of the pattern. Felt wads usually eliminate this problem. Eliminating the fiber or felt wad all together usually eliminates a week center in you're pattern. But, I use the wad for sending lube down the bore, so you'll have to figure something else out. You can smear a bit of lube at the muzzle after you pour in your powder then ram down your hard card thus taking the lube down the bore.... I'm not a big fan of that, but it works for some people.
OK.....here's where I'd start with your gun. you'll have to take it from here with work at the patern board.
70 to 80 grains of 2FF or 3FF, then a 1/8" hard card, then a wad (fiber or felt) lightly lubed with melted hard crisco, followed by around 1 1/8 OZ of the size shot of your choice, then the over shot card.
More shot than powder will sometimes shoot better... Size of shot makes a differnce too. What ever you end up finding works the best is the way to go with your gun, they all like something different. Consistant loading is the key once you get her dialed in.
An 1 1/8 OZ shot load is by no means a maximum load for a 20 bore. You can go around 1 1/2 OZ or a bit more with a comparative amount of powder, but the recoil starts to get a bit brutal at that point..
If you need any more help, let me know. That gun should shoot shot well. I hear the builder is an absolute genius and a swell guy that every body likes.... :haha:
 
Marc Adamchek said:
Are felt wads any better than fiber wads? Lubed/unlubed? thickness of overpowder cards?thickness of over shot cards? HELP! I'm a smoothie-newbie who wants to get his new 20 bore out to the patterning bench and then into the woods ASAP! I'm looking for any and ALL help I can get in the way of suggestions and advice related to this endeavor. I thank you heartily in advance.
[url] http://members.aye.net/~bspen/SmoothboreLoads.html[/url]
 
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Hi Marc, I'm in the same boat as you are, trying to learn to shoot a smoothbore. In my limited experience, Mike Brooks is spot on. I've played with a bunch of combinations in my 20 bore and have found his formula the best in my gun, with the exception that I found 60 grains of fffg performed the best. The felt wad over the over powder wad really made for a much more consistent pattern.
 
A dram equals 27.5 grains, and 2 drams is 55 grains. 60 grains is just short of 2 1/4 dram. 70 grain is a little more than 2 1/2 drams, and 80 is just under 3 drams. That is a pretty stout load, in spite of what Mike says. The only way it isn't is if some of the gas is escaping by those wool felt wads he recommends. You will find 3 dram loads in high brass, 3 inch 20 ga. modern shells, but rarely will you find a load that stout in a low brass shell. That 1 1/8 oz. load is also found in the 3 inch magnum high brass casings, but rarely in a low brass 2 3/4 inch length casing. Same for the 1 1/4 oz load of shot- these are magnum loads. They can punish you just as much as similar loads punish shooters of breechloading shotguns.

Unless you have the gun choked, you probably are not going to be able to make use of the higher velocities, and you will have indifferent and inconsistent patterns with this much powder and shot. You can go as low as 2 drams of powder and 3/4 oz of shot for a good 25 yd. load for turkey, using #5 shot. You are going to have to pattern that gun a lot to find out what your gun likes.
 
A dram equals 27.5 grains, and 2 drams is 55 grains. 60 grains is just short of 2 1/4 dram. 70 grain is a little more than 2 1/2 drams, and 80 is just under 3 drams. That is a pretty stout load, in spite of what Mike says. The only way it isn't is if some of the gas is escaping by those wool felt wads he recommends. You will find 3 dram loads in high brass, 3 inch 20 ga. modern shells, but rarely will you find a load that stout in a low brass shell. That 1 1/8 oz. load is also found in the 3 inch magnum high brass casings, but rarely in a low brass 2 3/4 inch length casing. Same for the 1 1/4 oz load of shot- these are magnum loads. They can punish you just as much as similar loads punish shooters of breechloading shotguns.
A flint fowler and a breech loading shot gun are apples and oranges. Your not limited by the length of the shell on a flint gun, only your ability to withstand recoil. I've never had any trouble handling recoil from 1 1/4 OZ loads out of a 20 bore flint fowler, not even in one that weighs 6-7 lbs. This is especially true if you're using 2FF, the powder burns so slow you just get a shove, not a sharpe crack.
 
How can you make blanket statements on these 20 ga. guns??? I have a number of smooth bores they are all a little different. I do however like the 1 1/4 oz load with 60 or 70 Grs. of 3f behind it. I have not been crippeled or had my bones broken .
I was 3rd in the state shoot last spring, out of 50 shooters. :thumbsup:
 
Barrel are creatures unto themselves. I have a friend who has patterned dozens of Remington 1100, and Rem. 870 barrels, and only a few shot good patterns with #6 shot, no matter how he loaded them. He found that if they shot #7 1/2 shot better than #8 shot, they would often shoot fairly well with #6, but if they shot #8 better, they almost always did better with #5 shot as a heavier game load. My 870 was okay, but would often string part of the pattern away from the main pattern, giving it a tear drop shape. Then I tapered the throat of the barrel with a reamer, and now it throws nice round patterns. I had tried every combination of shot, loads, etc.

Working with both my 12 ga. and 20 ga. ML guns, I have had similar experiences. If you have a gun that shoots those loads well, more power to you. Congratulations on your fine performance. If you will read the V.M. Starr article, you will see the basis for my " blanket statement", that less is more, and that shooters should stop falling for magnumitis sales fluff when shooting flintlock smoothbores. That is not how Flint guns work best, particular if they have no choke.

Mike: I have a short slug barrel for my 870 that is so accurate firing foster style slugs it makes men weep! It is throated and ported to keep the barrel from rising, and I have put 3 shots touching in the middle of the bullseye shooting iron sights off-hand at 50 yds. There is no earthly explanation for why that gun should be able to shoot slugs that accurately. I have seen ML barrels do things that surprise everyone, too. And, like that gun you use to own, I have seen barrels that look right but can't hit the broad side of a barn. I am a believer in Cryonics, and stress relief for barrels, particularly when they have been made on high speed lathes and mills. I have seen measurable improvements with barrels that have been stress relieved and surely wished this process was available 30 years ago! Barrel harmonics have been ignorred too long except by rimfire target shooters. The Browning BOSS system is the greatest advancement in barrel technology in the past 100 years, yet no one has found a way to make this kind of thing work for shotguns, either modern, or ML.
 
The turkey load I use in my Flint .62cal/.20ga is:

80grs Goex 3F
One Oxyoke prelubed wonderwad
1+5/8oz #6 shot
Circle Fly over shot card

1" x 33" heavy octagon barrel, extremely good pattern, recoil is as normal as shooting any other hunting load in .54/.58/.62cals
 
Have you ever shot that load over a chronograph, ROUNDBALL? I wonder how much more velocity you would get using a harder OverPowder Card wad, than those felt wonderwads? And what that would do to the patterns? I think you are reducing the velocity of that powder charge by adding all that more shot to the load.
 
Marc,

These guys have a lot more experience than I and as they say; every gun shoots different. I started shooting a flintlock fowler last year and it's a lot of fun. But I had to do lot's of shooting at paper & cardboard and experimenting with all kinds of wads to find a combination that shot a good pattern in my fowler. What I ended up using in my 20 ga fowler is 65 grains of Swiss 2F, two 1/8" 19 ga dry felt wads, one 1/8" 19 ga felt wad soaked in olive oil, 1 1/8 oz #5 or #6 shot, and one 20 ga overshot card. I buy my wads from Circle Fly and the guy there is very helpful. I use this to shoot rabbits, squirrels, and pheasants.
 
i get a kick,, pun not intended,, out of 20 guage stout loads.. i started with a 10 gauge pedersoli side by side.. i knew when i had a stout load ,, the the pressure comming out of the nipple recocked the hammer.. this only happened when one winter i was using plastic shotcups in cold weather.. i decided one time to work up some heavey loads.. i quit with somewhere around 150 grains 2fg and 165 grains equivelent shot... couldnt hit a thing with heavy loads in that light gun.., but the gun didnt even burp.. i won two state championships with that same gun tho with 80 gr 2f and 85 grains shot.. it had to have a very loooooong wad column between the powder and shot to keep the cards from tipping and stopping blowby tho... the shorter shot columns deform the least shot...... if you want to learn about black poweder loads and patterns and smoothbores- greeners book written in the 1800s(?) is the last word.. yes over 100 years old and the last word.. it should be at your lybrary... they didnt shoot trap and such things back then.. they shot patterns. the best shotgunners shot the best patterns.. much of the book is written about this and the champions, thier loads, and guages... shot was dropped and hand picked by women for roundnees and perfect size...one thing that really stuck with me is that the best tiger(or lion i forget) load ever made was a 12 guage sxs black poweder with round ball.. i guess it stoped them in their tracks with the close contact a wounded lion could give.. the big bullet guns probably just passed thru not stopping them, which could be fatal to the shooter.. greeners book is a must read for bp smoothbore shooters.. dave
 
“The Gun and It’s Development” (1881; 9th edition, published 1910) by W.W. Greener

You can get the paperback through Amazon pretty cheap.

1585747343.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V1056524687_.jpg
 
there are several books, i dont know which one i read.. sorry about the confusion.. ([url] http://www.wwgreener.com/book.html[/url] ) "The Gun (1835), The Science of Gunnery (1842) and Gunnery in 1858, not to mention the famous Gun and its Development and many other books by his son, William Wellington Greener - has never itself been the subject of a book devoted to the company's history and the guns it made up to the present day. The Greener Story by Graham Greener," dave
 
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