Was Buck and Ball loaded "loose" in military Muskets?

[Stantheman86]

I know there were Buck and Ball cartridges but during the Revolution , there were accounts of Soldiers in the Continental Army still loading from the powder horn and using wadding.

Did they carry loose buckshot to drop over the ball or did they usually just use a single round ball in these cases?

 

[tenngun]

We know folks loaded from horn and bag, and this load is known to hunters. Can’t prove it but I would suspect same way they did hunting.
I know an old gun found on a pirate wreck had buck loaded under the ball

 

[Artificer]

I know there were Buck and Ball cartridges but during the Revolution , there were accounts of Soldiers in the Continental Army still loading from the powder horn and using wadding.

Did they carry loose buckshot to drop over the ball or did they usually just use a single round ball in these cases?

I think you will be interested in this thread:

Buck and Ball Use by Continental Army | The Muzzleloading Forum

Gus

 

[Stantheman86]

We know folks loaded from horn and bag, and this load is known to hunters. Can’t prove it but I would suspect same way they did hunting.
I know an old gun found on a pirate wreck had buck loaded under the ball

I just saw the X-Ray of that musket looking for Buck and Ball info

Maybe they put it under the ball in Naval fighting to keep the pattern tighter or the guy just happened to load the cartridge buckshot down

 

[Stantheman86]

I think you will be interested in this thread:

Buck and Ball Use by Continental Army | The Muzzleloading Forum

Gus

Interesting info, it looks like Rogers' Rangers carried loose balls, shot and powder so they could load only buck shot for close quarters fighting

I would think regular Colonial Infantrymen would have had paper cartridges, but the numerous Militia units that had muskets may have just loaded with powder horns and loose ball. If George Washington required the use of Buck and Ball I'd guess they would carry the loose buckshot. If they had Fowling Pieces then loading with loose components is probably 100% likely.

 

[Artificer]

Interesting info, it looks like Rogers' Rangers carried loose balls, shot and powder so they could load only buck shot for close quarters fighting

I would think regular Colonial Infantrymen would have had paper cartridges, but the numerous Militia units that had muskets may have just loaded with powder horns and loose ball. If George Washington required the use of Buck and Ball I'd guess they would carry the loose buckshot. If they had Fowling Pieces then loading with loose components is probably 100% likely.

What REALLY gets confusing is the period use of the term "Ball Bag" with the modern way we use it.

Since Colonial/Continental Infantry had been trained in prior wars as "British Soldiers" and some Patriot Officers had served as Officers in the British Army in the past, BOTH the British and Patriot Soldiers would have known a "Ball Bag" as a pouch worn on the waist belt to carry "loose shot." That "loose shot" could be either full size balls, or smaller shot like buck shot, OR a combination of both.

Now that doesn't mean they ALL had the "ball bags" to carry "loose shot" on their waist belt, but it was something that was used during the period by some Regular Units (Like the British light Infantry) and perhaps some Continental Line Regular Soldiers and yes - something a Militia Soldier or Loyalist Soldier might have to carry what we call Buck Shot.

Of course the preferred method most times was buck shot already loaded into the cartridges, that both sides used to a large degree.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

BTW, here is a portrait of an American Captain wearing a "Ball Bag" on his waist belt.

This particular image is not as clear as others I've seen, but you can just make out his Ball Bag a bit to the right of the powder horn.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Interesting info, it looks like Rogers' Rangers carried loose balls, shot and powder so they could load only buck shot for close quarters fighting

I would think regular Colonial Infantrymen would have had paper cartridges, but the numerous Militia units that had muskets may have just loaded with powder horns and loose ball. If George Washington required the use of Buck and Ball I'd guess they would carry the loose buckshot. If they had Fowling Pieces then loading with loose components is probably 100% likely.

Not sure if I added the original portrait after you read my earlier post and you may have missed it.

Gus

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Interesting info, it looks like Rogers' Rangers carried loose balls, shot and powder so they could load only buck shot for close quarters fighting

I would think regular Colonial Infantrymen would have had paper cartridges, but the numerous Militia units that had muskets may have just loaded with powder horns and loose ball. If George Washington required the use of Buck and Ball I'd guess they would carry the loose buckshot. If they had Fowling Pieces then loading with loose components is probably 100% likely.

So Yes, John Knox's journal mentions the use of buckshot by rangers, added to a standard military load in the F&I.

We need to be careful assuming "militia" did this or did that..., militia was considered "military" and there were musters where training was conducted.

Some colonies, for example Maryland, expected not only a musket, but also a cartridge box..., so rolled cartridges. The men would need to show up with the powder and the ball, or the units were issued powder and ball, but no mention of bringing horns, so they were making cartridges.

Pennsylvania had no organized militia nor militia law, so very different, and the "Associator Companies" varied quite a lot.

What REALLY gets confusing is the period use of the term "Ball Bag" with the modern way we use it.

Gus

Not to mention the modern Scottish meaning for the term....

LD

 

[tenngun]

A question I have is why?
Shooting a line of men at long range for a musket you might get two or three guys, but in general for hunters or ‘close combat’ the pattern won’t be big enough to hit more then one.
So…… after a big ball made a target hors de combat or a deer DRT what does the buck shot do?
This is an historic load.

 

[Artificer]

A question I have is why?
Shooting a line of men at long range for a musket you might get two or three guys, but in general for hunters or ‘close combat’ the pattern won’t be big enough to hit more then one.
So…… after a big ball made a target hors de combat or a deer DRT what does the buck shot do?
This is an historic load.

Not all shots available when hunting deer are perfect broadside shots. A few buck shot might make the difference on hitting or missing head on or at a quartering shot. That's my guess.

Edited to add: Most of us today aren't dependent on hunting to survive. Many of them were. We can be sporting, they just wanted their next meals.

Gus

 

[TerryK]

I saw a video by cap and ball, where he showed how to make buck and ball preloads. Basically paper "tube" with twine separating section of buck, ball, and powder.

 

[Whitworth]

Here you can see the 3 dimple " face" left by the buck shot on the big ball after firing. This fired in anger in 1862.

 

[Stantheman86]

Very fascinating info , I've heard of the Ball Bags and I think you can buy repros.

I played around with loading 3, 6 and 12 pellets above and below the .648 round ball, the shot pretty much just sprays everywhere but one load "grouped" into a 3 shot cloverleaf at 25 yards, I think I had 12 pellets and a ball in that load.

A lot of the holes in the cardboard were already there so I can't tell which is the Buck

I carried the Buck in a leather shot flask and it was easy to just dump out a handful of buck . Could probably have dumped it right into the muzzle.

The pellets both above and below the ball seem to affect the accuracy of the big round ball, which makes sense since it will upset the flight of it either way. However, accuracy would seem like less of a concern if you're shooting at soldiers 80 yards away in volleys.

When I get the motivation I will load some Buck and Ball cartridges along with my normal Ball cartridges. I need to shoot at a bigger target next time so I can see where the Buck is hitting

I tried one load of about 20 buckshot and it just went all over the place even at 25 yards, half of it off the target backer but I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of 20 .310 balls propelled by 100 gr of 2f