Was Dutch right about wiping between shots?

[TerryK]

I had issues with cleaning between shots.
I generally fire 25 rounds a session, and don't need cleaning between rounds. My barrels are lapped, and easy to load and clean. I use simple green + water to clean, and balistrol as a final clean. I don't believe in "oils". Maybe the cleaning and barrels condition helps with the no clean between shots?

 

[thehorn]

I've been using Dutch's method inc. wiping between shots for the past 20+ years and it's worked for me. It forces me to pay a little more attention to my loading procedure and as a result I can't recall the last time I dry balled; it's been a while. Long ago when I was young I'd rush to get off the next shot and that's when "stuff" happens. The only speed-up I still use is coning all my muzzles to allow for ease of starting at the muzzle. For me, adding the extra step of wiping between shots helps with consistent accuracy and ease of loading which my old hands now cherish more than ever.

 

[2 shots]

has anyone mentioned the special t/c breechplug scraper??

 

[JDBraddy]

Offhand matches are the only ones I care about, for those of you who want to use Dutch's method, GREAT! I am happy for you.

I bought the book and experimented with the drying out of the Machine oiled dry lubed patches and the whole nine yards and shot off a good solid benchrest and accuracy was OK, not any better than my usual method but OK.

For offhand matches or hunting or woods walks it "in my opinion" is not worth the bother.

For offhand matches and the like people should work on getting a consistent shooting position, dry firing to reduce flinching and follow through, and follow through (yes, it is that important). Those habits will boost your scores.

I shoot because I enjoy it. I don't hunt but often shoot competition not because I need trophies or titles, but because I enjoy competing and socializing with other shooters.

I've shot just about every discipline from NRA service rifle / F-class, to USPSA/IDPA, to Skeet/sporting clays, to Sillhoette, Centerfire/rimfire Benchrest, airgun field-target, Schutzen, and now muzzleloading.

There are many ways, to do just about anything, and I like to discuss, learn, and try for myself, as many of them as I can in terms of shooting.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Snug spit patch.

No need to wipe between shots even after 20-30.

 

[JDBraddy]

Snug spit patch.

No need to wipe between shots even after 20-30.

Didn't get very good accuracy with spit, as shown on the test target below.

 

[cjgregory]

Offhand matches are the only ones I care about, for those of you who want to use Dutch's method, GREAT! I am happy for you.

I bought the book and experimented with the drying out of the Machine oiled dry lubed patches and the whole nine yards and shot off a good solid benchrest and accuracy was OK, not any better than my usual method but OK.

For offhand matches or hunting or woods walks it "in my opinion" is not worth the bother.

For offhand matches and the like people should work on getting a consistent shooting position, dry firing to reduce flinching and follow through, and follow through (yes, it is that important). Those habits will boost your scores.

I agree with this. Having shot military match for years, offhand should consume 90% of your shooting time. It translates to kneeling, sitting and prone positions.
I shoot my flintlock long rifles for the express purpose of increasing military match scores.

I’ve always had a dilemma that I can’t resolve. The dilemma being, did the expert riflemen of the revolutionary war who decimated the Indian scouts and later the British officers actually run around pounding balls down their rifle barrels and swabbing between shots? I think not.
They were expert offhand shoots which is why the long rifle developed into the perfect offhand instrument. The only thing even close to its design perfection is the M1 Garands that I use.

So what did they know that we do not? I’m not really into thinking that I have all the answers or even half of them.

I would say that they knew how to shoot. And if they needed a perfect shot (squirrels), they got close.

 

[Sam squanch]

I have a new englander .50 with a slightly pitted bore. Bought it for almost nothing. I get one hole accuracy at 50 yards with a peep sight. I weigh the round balls I use. I use no patch lube , spit, oil, ect. Completely dry. It’s a loose patch, pushes down with no struggle. But I use a wad of cream of wheat or a wool wad between the powder and ball. I believe that makes the black powder burn more completely. I wipe between shots with a lightly damp patch , both sides. But I must dismount the barrel after 15 shots or so for a thorough bucket of water cleaning, the Thomson center breech needs it or it’s misfire city.

 

[JDBraddy]

But I must dismount the barrel after 15 shots or so for a thorough bucket of water cleaning, the Thomson center breech needs it or it’s misfire city.

This is what I am seeking the best solution for. Accuracy is very important, but so is reliability. High performance equals tighter tolerances and thus less reliability. This is why soldiers and hunters don't usually use benchrest rifles. That being said, finding the right balance for what you do, is 90% of the fun!

 

[lv2tinker22]

You can purchase it here:

https://blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com

May as well get it straight from the source.

Thanks for the link, just ordered one from ebay.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@lv2tinker22, Dutch's system is geared toward precise accuracy on paper targets shooting a patched round ball in a percussion rifle usung real black powder. Not a really long term problem as it is a great tool for load development. As you become familiar with your rifle and learn about it's construction at the breech, you can start to make alterations in Dutch's system based on your shooting requirements. At the target range, one needs to wipe the bore between shots differently if one has a chambered breech or a flat breech. One needs to learn how to keep the flash channel clear of fouling introduced by firing or wiping the bore. With a percussion rifle, run a wet patch to the breech. While that patched jag is at the breech, fire a cap to send fouling in te flash channel to be captured in the wet patch and pulled out of the barrel. You should have a loading/wiping working rod with a jag sized so that if the jag is wrapped damp cleaning patch, it will practically slide down a clean barrel. When wiping between shots, that damp patch slides over the fouling from the muzzle to the breech and will bunch up to remove fouling from the grooves.

For hunting or shooting at large reactive targets such as silhouettes or clanger type targets, the "never wipe" method can be used. You do need to start off with a clean and dry flash channel. Follow on shots generally keep some fouling out of the flash channel and the lubricated patch pushes fouling from the grooves to between the powder and the patch. That fouling is shot out with the patched ball.

Your load development will help you choose the final method that meets your required accuracy.

What you are striving for is to maintain consistent conditions in the bore and flash channel from shot to shot.

Make good smoke.

 

[Crawfish]

I agree with this. Having shot military match for years, offhand should consume 90% of your shooting time. It translates to kneeling, sitting and prone positions.
I shoot my flintlock long rifles for the express purpose of increasing military match scores.

I’ve always had a dilemma that I can’t resolve. The dilemma being, did the expert riflemen of the revolutionary war who decimated the Indian scouts and later the British officers actually run around pounding balls down their rifle barrels and swabbing between shots? I think not.
They were expert offhand shoots which is why the long rifle developed into the perfect offhand instrument. The only thing even close to its design perfection is the M1 Garands that I use.

So what did they know that we do not? I’m not really into thinking that I have all the answers or even half of them.

I would say that they knew how to shoot. And if they needed a perfect shot (squirrels), they got close.

Plus, they only needed minute of man accuracy. 3” group at 100 yds or so is perfectly good enough-like shooting at gongs.

 

[lv2tinker22]

@lv2tinker22, Dutch's system is geared toward precise accuracy on paper targets shooting a patched round ball in a percussion rifleusung real black powder. Not a really long term problem as it is a great tool for load development. As you become familiar with your rifle and learn about it's construction at the breech, you can start to make alterations in Dutch's system based on your shooting requirements. At the target range, one needs to wipe the bore between shots differently if one has a chambered breech or a flat breech. One needs to learn how to keep the flash channel clear of fouling introduced by firing or wiping the bore. With a percussion rifle, run a wet patch to the breech. While that patched jag is at the breech, fire a cap to send fouling in te flash channel to be captured in the wet patch and pulled out of the barrel. You should have a loading/wiping working rod with a jag sized so that if the jag is wrapped damp cleaning patch, it will practically slide down a clean barrel. When wiping between shots, that damp patch slides over the fouling from the muzzle to the breech and will bunch up to remove fouling from the grooves.

For hunting or shooting at large reactive targets such as silhouettes or clanger type targets, the "never wipe" method can be used. You do need to start off with a clean and dry flash channel. Follow on shots generally keep some fouling out of the flash channel and the lubricated patch pushes fouling from the grooves to between the powder and the patch. That fouling is shot out with the patched ball.

Your load development will help you choose the final method that meets your required accuracy.

What you are striving for is to maintain consistent conditions in the bore and flash channel from shot to shot.

Make good smoke.

Thank you, that helps me to understand it better

 

[Mike in FL]

One more point: if a shooter prefers some amount of fouling in his barrel, then he should not swab. If he does not care about fouling in his barrel, then he should not swab. If he wants as close as he can get to zero fouling in his barrel, then he should swab. I don't know any other way to make a decision on swabbing. How many shots you can fire without swabbing is a non-issue. As is what you have always done or what you were taught. Also, "I see no need" is a non-issue, which would fall under "I don't care."
That said, I'm no one and no one should strive to be like me. I have a character defect that urges me to break undecided issues or topics down into the simplest terms so that we need not to be adamant about anyone's opinion or method being the best.
(Except putting a rifle muzzle in or on your mouth; my opinion there borders on extreme.)

 

[bpd303]

One more point: if a shooter prefers some amount of fouling in his barrel,

Every rifle or smooth bore I own is more accurate after the initial fouling shot. I only swab after it gets hard to ram the patched ball home. Then it is with the right sized patch and jag that lets the patch slid by the fouling and then bunch up as it's withdrawn pulling the fouling out like this one.

 

[Mike in FL]

Every rifle or smooth bore I own is more accurate after the initial fouling shot. I only swab after it gets hard to ram the patched ball home. Then it is with the right sized patch and jag thze at lets the patch slid by the fouling and then bunch up as it's withdrawn pullingnz the fouling out like this one.
View attachment 364151

I'm awful reluctant to disagree but it can't be true that a patch that touches the inside of a barrel slides by the fouling. While it is true the jag will swipe harder when pulling it out. Not to argue, but what we visualize going on in the barrel is not always reality. Many have spoken about crud being pushed against the breech face, and while that seems plausible, I've never known it to be an issue. My cleaning after a session involves scraping and I've not ever found excessive fouling, at least no more than is created by firing. Maybe that's because a gag does not accumulate fouling on the front, but rather the sides. I'm certain we all know that a jag does not stabilize a cleaning patch if we turn the rod in hopes of cleaning the breech face - the jag simply turns inside the stationary patch. To effectively clean the face we must use a rod tip that holds the patch securely so the patch itself turns when the rod is turned, like a bronze or brass screw in brush. I use an undersize brush like those made for cleaning modern bores. One or two folds over that brush insures enough patch material contacts the breech. That method is only my method and I'm sure other shooters have different or better methods. Concerning fouling shots, there is much to say about that advantage, but if hunting, my laziness precludes cleaning if I don't get a shot.
Good shooting, sir.

 

[JDBraddy]

I may be new to muzzleloading, but not to competitive shooting, even modern gun competitors fire fowling shots before shooting for record. Consistency of bore condition matters.