Well, a comedy of errors---but I learned a bit about shotgun muzzleloading :)

[RyanGeiler]

Thought I had done enough research and had all the bits/gear I need. As you can see from my post count, I'm new to muzzleloading--got a Kibler this past year and had great success with it. This forum was super helpful and has been my bible.

Since I happened to be getting a pup as my first bird dog, I figured I'd dive into muzzle shotguns as well and purchased a SXS Pedersoli .20 ga. Figured since I had a year of flintlock under my belt, I could handle a shotgun well enough as well. You plan, God laughs right?

So I went out after discussing possible loads on this forum.

Lesson 1
1st thing I discovered, yes, loading two barrels makes it disturbingly easy to forget where you are in the process. By the end of the day, I had settled on a process--loading both barrels at the same time--keeping a thumb over last barrel down in what particular step you are in (Pour powder in one, thumb over, pour powder in other, now cards, etc.). But since I'm spelling that out, you can tell mistakes were made and barrels were pulled a time or two for safety.

Lesson 2
I suck with this thing . I've shot pigeons enough that I figured I'd just adjust from a swing through to a lead with no issue. Wrong. I had a hell of time getting on the birds (3 of 15!). Now part of this is the load I believe. The Pedersoli calls for 75 gr/1 oz. The forum suggested I start at 60-65, fair enough--but it really didn't pattern well. Later today I'm going to go back at it with a 75 gr load and see where I set. It's going to take a lot of practice.

Lesson 3
Don't load the second pan, even if you close it. The Pedersoli 20 has smaller flints but even then--they don't allow the frizzen to seat all the way on the pan. There is a (very small) crack near the bottom even when closed. I discovered this when one barrel firing kicked off both barrels . So either I will need to knap that second flint to make sure the frizzen seats all the way or just not prime that pan.

Lesson 4
This gun is a bit more temperamental than my Kibler. The Kibler just fires, every time, without fail--the lock just ticks along. Not so much here. The touch hole plugged a few times and after a few flashes, I realized I would need to pick my vent hole more often. Using Goex FFF powder too, no substitute powder. I would also need to swab the gun more often between shots, as the choked barrel can become a bugger quick. This concerns me if I hunt with it. I'm not sure if temperature played a part here. I google beforehand on cold weather effects on muzzleloading and mostly what I found was condensation concerns when bringing back inside. Since I planned on cleaning immediately after, I wasn't concerned--but it was pretty damn cold (10 degrees) when I was shooting...so I wonder.

Lesson 5
About that choked barrel! This was a mistake that made me feel like an utter fool. So I didn't have a 20 ga cleaning jag at the range (not in my normal kit) and was making due with a double patch on a .50 jag. This worked just fine for the non-choke barrel....and seemed to work ok on the choke modified until one pull snapped my ramrod (I didn't think I was even pulling that hard but suppose so!). The barrel must have been fouled pretty good that time around. So I had to pull that sucker out, luckily it was right near the end so I did manage to slip it out.....but man I felt like a stupid a$$ (still do). What a dumb mistake. I'm still pissed at myself for doing it.

Lesson 6
Not so much a lesson but a concern! I would love to upland hunt with this gun but hoo boy, I'm not sure I'll be able to manage all of the special needs + my dog in the field. I have some speed loaders from Dixie, with shot/powder on each side and those were pretty damn nifty--definitely going to get some more. But the cards are fickle and difficult to manage, I can't imagine with gloves in the field on a windy day. I tried putting them in ziploc bags (I pre-drilled a tiny hole in the overshot cards as well to make seating easier)---but those ziploc bags didn't work so well. How do you guys carry your cards/wads in the field?

Lesson 7 (Hey a good one!)
The gun cleans nicely! Boy those chrome barrels come clean quick! It only took a few swabs on each barrel, changing the water out and then the water ran clean. I had read that brass wire brushes were ok in a chrome barrel for cleaning--but I'm not sure why would ever need it--they are slick and swab so easily. I didn't remove the touch hole liners, although given the flashes that day I considered it. For one, I'm sure that requires a special tool I don't have and 2--it seems like when I searched this forum it's a debate if you should or not--with most saying not. Regardless, I really enjoyed this part of it .

Overall, I'm a bit disheartened but I'm old enough to realize this is the nature of learning a new thing---however I'm still particularly nervous about hunting with this. Between my accuracy, how touchy the gun seems to be regarding fouling and how difficult it will be to manage the dog/ammo needs....dunno. Not feeling warm and fuzzy . I'm going back at it later today with lessons in mind to see how it goes this time. Feel free to talk me off the cliff!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Lesson 1
--keeping a thumb over last barrel down in what particular step you are in...

Um..., don't do that. If on a range a savvy range officer will DQ you because you have a body part over a loaded (even if just powder) barrel. Leave the ramrod in. You load powder, then a wad... leave the rammer in, while you pour your shot into a measure, then remove it, pour the shot, replace it if you have to fish out a wad or overshot card, then remove it and ram down the wad or over shot card. THEN switch to the next barrel and start from the top. There's a trick to use when shooting a lot of targets or a lot of birds, see below... lesson 6 reply

Lesson 2
The Pedersoli calls for 75 gr/1 oz. The forum suggested I start at 60-65, fair enough--but it really didn't pattern well. Later today I'm going to go back at it with a 75 gr load and see where I set.

With the Pedersoli, it's also the shot. Try 70 grains of 3Fg which is 2.5 drams of powder, and try 80 grains which is three drams, BUT also try #7.5 shot vs #6 shot. For some reason mine does not really like #8.

Lesson 3
I discovered this when one barrel firing kicked off both barrels . So either I will need to knap that second flint to make sure the frizzen seats all the way or just not prime that pan.

IF your flints are holding the pan open because they touch the frizzen.., they are too long. Also you need to open a groove (imho) in the back of the leather wrap around the flint to allow the back of the flint to touch the jaw screw. It does make a difference on Pedersoli locks.

Lesson 4
This gun is a bit more temperamental than my Kibler. The Kibler just fires, every time, without fail--the lock just ticks along. Not so much here. The touch hole plugged a few times and after a few flashes, I realized I would need to pick my vent hole more often. Using Goex FFF powder too, no substitute powder. I would also need to swab the gun more often between shots, as the choked barrel can become a bugger quick. This concerns me if I hunt with it. I'm not sure if temperature played a part here. I google beforehand on cold weather effects on muzzleloading and mostly what I found was condensation concerns when bringing back inside. Since I planned on cleaning immediately after, I wasn't concerned--but it was pretty damn cold (10 degrees) when I was shooting...so I wonder.

When it gets cold we forget about humidity. Sound like a humidity problem, and yes, pricking the touchhole before priming is often part of the "ritual" for shooting SxS guns, as well as other flinters.

Lesson 5
..., So I didn't have a 20 ga cleaning jag at the range (not in my normal kit) and was making due with a double patch on a .50 jag. This worked just fine for the non-choke barrel....and seemed to work ok on the choke modified until one pull snapped my ramrod (I didn't think I was even pulling that hard but suppose so!). The barrel must have been fouled pretty good that time around. So I had to pull that sucker out,..., What a dumb mistake....,

Nope..., my experience with Pedersoli's is that they are notorious when they have a wooden rammer for fragile and improperly grained ram rods. My 20 sports a "nylon" rod even as we speak. Yours was just a "matter of time". Now my aftermarket wood ramrods on my rifles... which take more of a beating than my shotgun or tradegun rods..., have lasted many many years.

Lesson 6
Not so much a lesson but a concern! I would love to upland hunt with this gun but hoo boy, I'm not sure I'll be able to manage all of the special needs + my dog in the field. I have some speed loaders from Dixie, with shot/powder on each side and those were pretty damn nifty--definitely going to get some more. But the cards are fickle and difficult to manage,...,

then dont...
When I hunt by myself, or with another flint locker... I can do the old style loading. When I hunt at a game preserve, I hunt with fellows with modern shotguns, and they don't want to wait while I go through the old tech procedure, ESPECIALLY if I used both barrels... and mine is a caplock, so a flinter would take even more time.

The trick..., you mentioned speed loaders, but you make disposable speed loaders. I use paper, musket-style cartridges. I have wooden dowels that I fit to the muzzle of the shotgun so that when the paper is wrapped around them the newly made paper tube slides in without trouble. I use old book paper to form the cartridges for the powder, and put in a pre-measured load of 70 grains of 3Fg. THEN I use newspaper, to make a cartridge of pre-measured shot of one ounce.

So to load, I tear open the powder cartridge, pour, then I ram down the now empty paper cartridge that held the powder, on top of the powder to make the wad. I leave the ramrod on the powder and wad while I fish out my shot cartridge. I remove the ramrod, and insert the shot cartridge whole, and ram that down to rest upon the powder and wad. Voila, she's loaded and ready to go. All I need to is cap and in your case all you'd need do is prick and prime.

You swab as you need..., on the range you have the other shooters taking turns so no need to hurry, and tearing off a bit of a sheet of those pre-moistened toilet wipes saves you time when swabbing if it's really crusty.

IF you're really worried about a lubed wad, prelube fiber wads and keep them with the powder cartridges and fish out one when you fish out the other. You tear and pour and discard the paper cartridge (it's book paper it will not harm the environment or you can pocket the empty paper tube)..., then immediately insert the wad and ram that down, followed by the intact paper cartridge.

IF you worry about the smoldering paper, then pretreat the paper by dipping it in a mild borax and water solution and let the stuff dry.

I get my book paper from the books for sale at the dollar store or old books being sold off at the library.

LD

 

[martin9]

First thing I would do is drill those touch holes a hair bigger. Not sure what size pedersoli uses so I'd just check it with a few tiny drill bits and just go up one size for now.

 

[Ponderosaman]

To keep track, I stick my ramrod in the second barrel. The powder charge is the one you really really need to have. Powder empty side, ramrod on top of powder. Powder new empty side. Ramrod out, nitro nitro cards. Ram ram. Cushion cushion. Ram ram. Ramrod in one side. Shot. Switch ramrod. Shot. Ramrod out overshot overshot cards. Ram ram. Replace rod in under barrel holder.

I don’t poke holes in my overshot cards. I believe the suction helps hold the charge in the second barrel in place when I shoot the first. To get the cards down, if you get some pressure, stop and lift your ramrod a small amount very quickly. The pressure will pop the card a little and relieve itself. You may have to repeat a couple times to get it all the way down.

I broke my ramrod and hurt my hand due to the excessive force I needed to load past the fouling. I now have a TOW steel range rod with wooden handle that shoves hard and efficiently. I can put my range rod through my belt loop like a sword for carrying. I have a Delrin ramrod that I also bought from TOW if I want to leave my range rod at home.

I’m just starting my second dog and can say that running my dog and hunting is hard enough with a modern shotgun. I agree that becoming proficient with the muzzleloader and dog will be requisite to putting the two together.

 

[SOLANCO]

ML shotgun OR dog. Not both new at once. It's not fair to the dog. Carry an unmentionable for the birds until your dog is trained.
I try to be the man my dog thinks I am.

 

[rchas]

I would spend a little time on the range with a patterning board to see what charge/shot load your gun likes.

 

[simonbeans]

I appreciate your issues and concerns. I too have the Pederosoli 20 double. Nice gun, but with any double, loading and shooting is a new challenge to be learned. All shotguns require for the most part many more items to load. Keeping them in such a matter to facilitate loading can be a bit problematic. Over the decades that I have been shooting smoothbore shotguns I have tried many ways to organize the "Parts". This is my latest attempt for this purpose:

The gun is set on the ground before me (always the same each loading). Trigger guard outward for orientation. I use the flask for powder and charge left side barrel then right side looking down toward the barrels. Then I take the over power card (in left compartment of the belly box) and seat them, one left, one right. The cushion wad is next, left to right, unless you are using the Sky Chief method. (I won't discuss that now, as I am sure it has been debated enough). Shot is dispensed by an English charger fashioned as a shot snake and slung over my left shoulder, again left side then right. Finally the over shot card from the right side of the belly box is seated over the shot, left barrel to right. Both pans are filled as desired by the small flask. Flints are short enough for frizzens to close completely as designed.

Off to the woods and fields.

My years of playing these games have evolved this method for me. Not necessarily for all, but works for me.

 

[godutch]

ML shotgun OR dog. Not both new at once. It's not fair to the dog. Carry an unmentionable for the birds until your dog is trained.
I try to be the man my dog thinks I am.

"Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful" Ann Landers

 

[godutch]

'Just a thought Ryan, re; dog vs. gun. Your pup's either into or quickly approaching the learning curve that will define him/her and you together. Miss it, and you may never get the chance again. Fuss with the gun while your pup's resting between training outings and I'd be willing to bet you'll both be having a grand time in the very near future. "Never trust anyone who doesn't like dogs" quote; Mine

 

[RyanGeiler]

Thanks for all the replies. I was unsure if my lack of experience meant it would be doable and I just had a rough day at the range---or if it was really always going to be an issue (dog and muzzle). I believe I'm convinced of the latter. I'll just save the Pedersoli for field action when my buddy is running his mutt versus mine then---and I sure did need an excuse to buy a nice O/U anyways

@Ponderosaman and @Loyalist Dave , thanks for the tips on ramrod/barrel switching. That makes a great deal of sense and is what I will try to incorporate from this point forward!

@simonbeans That is exactly what I was trying to picture on doing---that wood insert you have, assume you made that yourself?

Thanks again to everyone!

 

[hanshi]

Don't worry about poor shooting early on; I also suck with doubles even though I like them a lot. A single barrel is easier for me to shoot and hit. Drill out the liner's touch hole with a 1/16" bit for more reliable ignition. It's a learning curve so shoot as much as you are able.

 

[simonbeans]

@RyanGeiler Yes, that is what I made. Had the belly box, made the insert. I have an insert for 12, 16, and 20ga wads. I'm retired so I have a lot of shop time to fill.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I'm right handed so powder goes in the right barrel, gun between legs. Then a card, the fouling control (homemade lube), then another card or two. Ram home. Leave rammer there.

Powder left barrel repeating the procedure, now leave rammer in left barrel.
Now add shot and card to right barrel and ram.
You guess the rest.....

As soon as it feels crusty, add some lube just like on the first shot.
Dump the swabbing gear!
Stick to one type of card, overshot cards. Simpler and kinder on the rammer and kinder to the pattern.

Pedersoli make their vent holes just big enough for a bees whisker to pass through! I drilled mine.
Use a prick everytime.
Do use other shot sizes.
Do use as much shot as you wish or as less. My pedersoli trade gun (.63") thrive on 1&1/4oz loads.

 

[3Setters]

Did I miss it, what kind of dog?

 

[Ponderosaman]

Did I miss it, what kind of dog?

No, he does need to post a pic though.

 

[Sparkitoff]

What I found interesting, although slightly OT, is that my Pedersoli (20b) does not like #8 shot either. 7.5 copper plated or 6s pattern great.

 

[FPDoc]

Thanks for all the replies. I was unsure if my lack of experience meant it would be doable and I just had a rough day at the range---or if it was really always going to be an issue (dog and muzzle). I believe I'm convinced of the latter. I'll just save the Pedersoli for field action when my buddy is running his mutt versus mine then---and I sure did need an excuse to buy a nice O/U anyways

@Ponderosaman and @Loyalist Dave , thanks for the tips on ramrod/barrel switching. That makes a great deal of sense and is what I will try to incorporate from this point forward!

@simonbeans That is exactly what I was trying to picture on doing---that wood insert you have, assume you made that yourself?

Thanks again to everyone!

Excellent initial post and self evaluation. Good follow up up posts by members as well, good advice. Don't forget, if you were trying to teach yourself to juggle chainsaws you probable shouldn't start with two. Don't try to get too fancy too quickly. It is one of the things that makes real life interesting. The choices have very real consequences. Nice shotgun as well.

 

[RyanGeiler]

Well if you’re going to twist my arm and make me post pics of my buddy, sure! He's a pointing lab from Lankas Labs in Kansas. Mike and his wife run a great business and has always been responsive, helpful and is extremely experienced with gun dogs. Since this is my first, I have nothing to compare to but my other dogs in my life (we had a golden for 15 years, pound rescues before that)---I'll just say our new buddy is extremely trainable and Lankas seems to turn out some smart dogs. Housebroke @ 9 weeks, fetched/retrieved naturally (well he is a lab), already quarters and responds to hand signals, woahs, recalls, etc. He just soaks up lessons, brightest dog I've ever been around. My wife would say you made a mistake asking about our new son!

When I first got him

Compared to today

Funny pic my wife got. Naturally, he loves the smells on any of my hunting boots. First month we got him, she forgot to close latch our barn door entrance to the walk in, she heard it slide open and him scuttle down the hallway from our bedroom. She walked in and said "What are you doing!" and he froze like this. She yanked out her camera and we had a good laugh:

His first point on a pheasant wing. Didn't raise his foot yet but he goes rigid and tail goes out--this was about 10 weeks:

I work from home a lot (healthcare admin/analytics), so I'll be working and hear him whine. when I turn around, half the time he's assumed the position and waiting for a belly rub:

And one of his favorite past times, next to chewing, chewing, chewing and chasing bird feathers/bumpers:

We are at 13 weeks. My first experience training a gundog, going off the Knutson Training the Pointing lab bible. We reliably fetch, find hidden bumpers with quail/pheasant wings in deep grass, return to call and woah. I introduced birds (quail) one weekend to see prey drive--and he was all over the birds and popcorned around the yard after--so we are good to go there. I'm lucky to live in the country with him, we have a big pasture with deep dried up grass/clover, so it's a good training ground/walk to get there and back.

I'll wait until he's past his 4 month fear phase, then @ 5 months start introducing some loud sounds during fetch/hunting walks--and slowly start bringing the noise up to .22 blanks at a distance, .22 blanks closer, etc. etc. Luckily, I have a lot of shooters in the 'country neighborhood', so we've had distant gunshots go off quite a bit during our hunting walks and he doesn't seem to care/notice---and some of them have been the sharp staccato of an AR so I hope we'll be good when introducing the gun down the road. No e-collar yet, figure I'll wait until 6 months or when his teenager phase starts--he's good on obedience for now.


Ok I'll shut up!

 

[RyanGeiler]

Excellent initial post and self evaluation. Good follow up up posts by members as well, good advice. Don't forget, if you were trying to teach yourself to juggle chainsaws you probable shouldn't start with two. Don't try to get too fancy too quickly. It is one of the things that makes real life interesting. The choices have very real consequences. Nice shotgun as well.

Good advice there and thanks for the kind words! I definitely don't want to screw up with my new pup and you are quite right, the 'other chainsaw' can always come later with him

I'm surprised at the # of posters suggesting I go ahead and drill out the Pedersoli touch hole, guess that's a known issue with them eh? @hanshi suggested a 1/16th bit---any other info I should know? Do I need to remove the touch liners, grease my bit, worry about shards, etc? Thanks!

 

[PathfinderNC]

Good tip about pre-soaking cartridge paper in borax solution. I get smoldering wads and it kind of worries me.