Western Arms Corp Hawken Rifle

[45Wheelgun]

Hi, first post from a long time lurker.

I recently purchased this firearm. It is marked "Western Arms Corp" "Santa Fe, N.M." "Jedediah Smith, 1799-1831". "xxx of 1000" It appears to be in excellent condition, I'm not sure if it has been fired, it doesn't show any signs of it to me, but I am far from an expert.

I am aware that this barrel is .53, even though the barrel is marked .54.

I have done a pretty through internet search on this rifle and have found conflicting information.

I have read these were developed from blue prints of Kit Carson's gun and produced by Adlo Uberti. From this thread here:
http://muzzleloadermag.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/20610091/m/6171079222

I have also read (See Mr. Phariss's post below) that Uberti made a prototype but in the end the guns were not produced. I have also read that these guns began to be imported in 1976.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/.../post/943465/hl/santa+fe/fromsearch/1/#943465

From my earlier post on this subject:

Western Arms paid a friend of mine to make a copy of the J&S Hawken in the MT Historical Society collection as a prototype for the making of a good Hawken as opposed to what was then on the market.
It was then sent to Italy for reproduction. A few were made and basically Uberti was not able to reproduce the gun, at least not for what the mass market would pay. They did make a "Hawken" but it was basically a generic Hawken style rifle based on the prototype. The "Santa Fe" Hawken is based on this gun as well if I recall the "Santa Fe" correctly.
The original is a very nice J&S. The copy was top of the line by an extremely talented gunsmith/gunmaker.

This is all detailed in an issue or two of the old Buckskin Report. Everyone thought we were going to get an actual Hawken without the price of a custom gun. Didn't happen.

I discussed this with the man who made it a few months back and he said "the Italians could not make the gun". Stock shaping was too complex was the primary problem I believe.


Dan

So if Uberti didn't make these guns, who did?

The gun has a serial number below 900 and a "### of 1000" number below 400. I have tried to get pictures of the nomenclature, but it was tough. The pictures of the nomenclature have been enhanced in an attempt to make it more readable. The serial number and ### of 1000 number have been removed.

Thanks for any insight you might be able to offer. Any comments about my particular rifle are welcome.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[David W.]

Have you shot it yet? What type is the main spring, coil or leaf?

I personally think the stock could have been finished out a little better. It does look like your finger will drag when you try to rest it on the trigger. I did notice the clean out screw on the left of the breech which can be a good thing. I would remove it and put some anti-seize compound on it. How well does the barrel seat to the stock? It look like I see a gap there. Still, it's a nice looking rifle.

 

[David W.]

Sorry, Welcome to the forum! You'll find a lot of information here!

I wasn't trying to knock your rifle. :thumbsup:

 

[Zonie]

The "U" in the bore stamp is Uberti's stamp. They are the company that made it.

 

[45Wheelgun]

Have you shot it yet? What type is the main spring, coil or leaf?

How well does the barrel seat to the stock? It look like I see a gap there. Still, it's a nice looking rifle.

I have not been able to shoot it yet, I am waiting for the .52 balls to arrive.

I assume it has a leaf main spring, I was unaware that Hawken Rifles used coil springs. I have not had the lock work apart. Unless I have a problem, I don't intend to.

There is no gap between the barrel and the stock, it is a tight fit. I'm not sure what picture made you think that but I would assume it was a shadow. Overall, I am impressed with the fit and finish. Of course I am easily impressed...

Zonie: Thanks for the insight. I figured it was a Uberti, with the "Made in Italy" on the barrel. I'm not sure who else it would have been. Knowing that is their trademark helps.

 

[Renegade Dan]

Nice lookin rifle ya got there Dave :thumbsup: Welcome to the forum.

 

[David W.]

Some of the modern rifles such as T/C have coil springs. I'm not sure what the Uberti has though.

 

[nit wit]

I noticed it was a .54 cal, you will have good luck with .530 or .535 balls.
Nice rifle!!
Also WELCOME.
Nit Wit

 

[Bill Hall]

I never even shot a Santa Fe Hawken myself, but know a few guys who have them and the all claim they're the "bee's knees". I hunted with one family a few years back, four boys and the dad, who all own consecutively numbered rifles. Five rifles with early numbers. They've taken their fair share of deer with them.

Lovely rifles in my opinion. I'm not too sure about that claim of copying Kit Carson's rifle, but still very traditionally styled. I think you got a keeper. Bill

 

[paulvallandigham]

PLEASE, Take that Lock off the stock, and inspect the back side. You may have loose screws, or wood chips, or any other kind of problem that may result in parts breaking or the lock not working correctly if and when you fire it waiting back there. Most lock mortises have had NO stock finish put on the insides, to help prevent moisture and oil from seeping into the wood. Correct that.

A percussion lock operates on Two Springs: The mainspring, and the sear spring. both are on the inside of the lockplate, out of view. Those springs have to function unimpeded by drag, or interference for the lock to work properly. To check them, simply operate the hammer on the lock back and forth and observe the movement of the springs. If you see rub marks on the inside of the plate, or see anything rubbing against the springs, those parts need to be removed, to prevent unnecessary wear to your parts, and stress on the springs.

Contact point between the springs and metal parts that move against the springs need to be polished smooth, and oiled after every shooting session. Screws need to be checked after every shooting session. And the lock needs to be cleaned and oiled after every shooting session. DO NOT MAKE THE MISTAKE of believing that BP residue WON'T get down inside that lock. IT WILL and IT DOES!

The residue attracts moisture, and that creates rust. I have seen far too many percussion guns with serious damage done to the inside of locks simply because the owners didn't KNOW its necessary to clean the Entire gun, not just the barrel, and nipple. :shocked2: :idunno: :hmm: :hatsoff:

 

[Robert an saa fan]

First, very nice pictures you posted!

Have the same basic rifle but in a standard model.

Mine is serial # 15XX. It is marked on top rear barrel flat with "Western Arms Corp Santa Fe NM" and on left rear barrel flat with "A. Uberti & C Gardone V.T. Italy".

According to author Sam Fadala some of these Uberti's were made to take .526 balls. Mine takes .520 balls.

Paul gave very good advice on checking out the inside of the lock. My lock has a leaf main spring.

Enjoy!

 

[45Wheelgun]

PLEASE, Take that Lock off the stock, and inspect the back side. You may have loose screws, or wood chips, or any other kind of problem that may result in parts breaking or the lock not working correctly if and when you fire it waiting back there. Most lock mortises have had NO stock finish put on the insides, to help prevent moisture and oil from seeping into the wood. Correct that.

Thank you for this advice. Being more of a revolver guy, where we learn never to take off the side plate unless absolutely necessary, I would have never considered tearing down that portion of the rifle.

Do I understand that you are recommending I apply a finish to the wood under the lock? If so, what product would you recommend?

Thanks again,

Dave

 

[45Wheelgun]

First, very nice pictures you posted!

Have the same basic rifle but in a standard model.

According to author Sam Fadala some of these Uberti's were made to take .526 balls. Mine takes .520 balls.

Thanks Robert.

Which book by Fadala references these rifles? Looks like I will need to order some .526 balls to see which work best.

Beyond the commemorative markings, what are the differences in our guns?

Also, which came first, the base model or the commemorative?

Thanks again,
Dave

 

[Robert an saa fan]

First, very nice pictures you posted!

Have the same basic rifle but in a standard model.

According to author Sam Fadala some of these Uberti's were made to take .526 balls. Mine takes .520 balls.

Thanks Robert.

Which book by Fadala references these rifles? Looks like I will need to order some .526 balls to see which work best.

Beyond the commemorative markings, what are the differences in our guns?

Also, which came first, the base model or the commemorative?

Thanks again,
Dave

Fadala's book "The Gun Digest Black Powder Loading Manual" references your rifle as an Allen (Allen Firearms was the name founder Leonard Allen used to replace the name Western Arms Corp. Allen went out of business in 1987.) If I recall correctly Fadala stated that older Santa Fe Hawkens shoot better with .520 balls vs. .526 for newer ones.

Since your Hawken is marked Western Arms Corp I would guess it will do better with .520 balls.

Other than markings, the only difference I see in our guns is that yours has a channel cut in the wood by the left rear side of the barrel to access the screw. Your metal and wood finishes are identical with mine.

I don't know which came first, the base model or the commemorative. Perhaps another member will have more information.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The first time I took the side plate off a revolver I was shocked at how much CRUD was inside that lock. I was also ashamed of myself, as I found other "stuff" in there that should not have been there.

Do yourself a big favor: Find a gunsmith to show you how to take that sideplate off- or get a good DVD that shows you how to work on your model and make of revolver.


Then do check it at least ANNUALLY. Oil it with a good oil, and if you are involved in lots of wet weather, or the gun gets dunked, take that plate off and clean it again. The gun will work longer, and will work better. The FAILURE TO CLEAN GUNS is what keeps most gunsmiths in business, I am said to say. It almost always results in broken parts inside the gun.

I learned this the hard way, as I had a suppository shotgun where I didn't have the right tools to remove the firing pin. So, I shot the gun for years without cleaning that part of the gun. The Firing pin Spring eventually failed, in 4 places! :shocked2: :rotf: before the gun began failing to fire. We are talking a $.50 part( at the time) and all I needed was some instruction and a 1/16" pin punch to remove ONE pin. :surrender: :hmm: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I have friends who use an old AMMO can filled with Kerosene( Fuel oil) as a dunk tank. They take revolvers they have fired a lot, remove the wood grip panels, and then hang the revolvers in the can for an hour. Then they use compressed air to blow all the kerosene and debris out of the action. Once inspected, they oil the action, replace the hand grip panels, and clean up the outside with solvents to remove fingerprints. They they oil the surfaces for storing the gun.

I don't have the Compressor, or I would use this same process to more quickly clean revolvers.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Dave: Yes, put a stock finish in the lock mortise, the barrel channel, the ramrod channel, and under the side plate, and butt plate. Any good gun finishing oil works, but I have taken to the Birchwood-Casey "Tru-Oil" product. Its easy to use, easy to apply, and provides a good vapor barrier.

I have also been known to give a good coating of Epoxy resin to the inside of my lock mortise when I thought that the stock was Incredibly WEAK at that point. The hardened epoxy soaks into the wood, and adds considerable strength to the wood where its the thinnest.

Oil finishes are known to "breathe", and will allow some moisture in and out of the wood they cover. Epoxy doesn't. A lot of commercially made rifles can benefit from having the rear 4 inches of the barrel channel, and the tang area of the stock "glass Bedded" using epoxy compounds. ( "Glass= fiberglass) Bedding corrects any fitting flaws due to either improper cutting of the barrel mortise, or from wood shrinking after the barrel mortise is cut. Shrinkage is more common than most people realize.

 

[hanshi]

I'm in agreement with Paul concerning removing the lock and putting stock finish on the incised wood. I do not take pinned barrels out of the stock to clean; it's much too easy to damage the stock. But I do take the barrels out at least once and smother the barrel channel with Tru-Oil. I also take the locks off for regular cleaning. I made sure all the wood in the lock recess was well coated with Tru-Oil. Clean and oil that lock after every firing.

 

[David W.]

Tru-Oil, Watco Danish oil finish, or Tung oil. Any of these finishes will work just fine.

To remove the side plate, loosen the screw three revolutions and gently tap it with a hammer.

 

[Zonie]

Removing the lock should not be a big problem if you have a plastic handled screw driver that fits the lock screw on the left side of the rifle.

Place the rifle at half cock and unscrew the screw about 3 turns.
Using the plastic handle, tap the screws head, driving it in towards the sideplate. This will drive the lock out of its mortice slightly.

Unscrew the screw another couple of turns and repeat the tapping. Then remove the screw.

You should be able to easily remove the lock although if the mortice is tight you may have to rock the lock back and forth a few times.

If you apply a gun stock finish to the cavity try not to cover the area of the mortice where the lock plate was fitting the wood as a very small amount of finish in that area can make reinstalling the lock difficult.

On a few factory guns I've been known to use a knife to remove some of the excess stock finish that the maker applied to the mortice where the lock plate fits it because too much around the outside of the lockplate can make it much tighter than it needs to be.

 

[45Wheelgun]

Paul, (and others)

Thank you for the advice and council. I will be following your advice and adding a trueoil finish to the exposed wood under the lockwork and barrel. I will also be sure to keep the lockwork cleaned and oil after each shoot.

As for revolvers, I have a bit of an S&W collection and am well versed in sideplate removal. All revolvers entering my collection are completely disassembled, cleaned and then lubricated. How often the sideplate is removed after that depends on how often it gets shot. In general, fearing finish damage, I prefer to stay out of there...

Thank you again for the sage advice.

Dave