Westley Richards double barrel

[muzzlecap]

I recently acquired this Westley Richards double barrel percussion gun. Typically you don't see a stock with the cheekpiece and rifle style trigger guard on a gun like this so I'm thinking a specila order back in the day. I sent away to Westley Richards for any information they may have had in their ledgers. The info came back the other day. From their ledger, it describes the gun as a double barrel 14 gauge percussion shotgun completed on August 6, 1849 for P. G. Van der Byl & Co. That's all the info I got. I tried to research the Van der Bly name but got nothing. Their ledger describes the gun as 14 gauge. I don't have a bore gauge but at the muzzles I get maybe a 16 gauge. So not sure why they have it as a 14gauge. Another oddity is that the name Westley Richards on the rib is in written script, not block letters like usually seen. The barrels, breech plugs, trigger guard and the locks all have the same serial number. The locks function perfectly and still fit nice and snug in the inletting. At first I thought maybe someone restocked it at some point with the style of stock it has. But the trigger guard has the serial number on it and the stock was inlet for this guard and lock plates. There is no indication that the stock was altered for the barrel wedge and no indication that the barrel lug was moved. The barrels are tight in the stock and fit the breech plug as they should. The barrels have the proper Westley Richards markings and proofs for the time period. But I am wondering about the name on the rib being in written script and was wondering if anyone might know if they used a written script for a certain period instead of block letters. I suppose I could contact Westley Richards again but I told them about this when I sent away for the info but there was no comments about that. So just wondering if anyone else knows.

 

[TDM]

Beautiful shotgun! Glad you were able to at least get some information on it.

 

[Splitear]

I recently acquired this Westley Richards double barrel percussion gun. Typically you don't see a stock with the cheekpiece and rifle style trigger guard on a gun like this so I'm thinking a specila order back in the day. I sent away to Westley Richards for any information they may have had in their ledgers. The info came back the other day. From their ledger, it describes the gun as a double barrel 14 gauge percussion shotgun completed on August 6, 1849 for P. G. Van der Byl & Co. That's all the info I got. I tried to research the Van der Bly name but got nothing. Their ledger describes the gun as 14 gauge. I don't have a bore gauge but at the muzzles I get maybe a 16 gauge. So not sure why they have it as a 14gauge. Another oddity is that the name Westley Richards on the rib is in written script, not block letters like usually seen. The barrels, breech plugs, trigger guard and the locks all have the same serial number. The locks function perfectly and still fit nice and snug in the inletting. At first I thought maybe someone restocked it at some point with the style of stock it has. But the trigger guard has the serial number on it and the stock was inlet for this guard and lock plates. There is no indication that the stock was altered for the barrel wedge and no indication that the barrel lug was moved. The barrels are tight in the stock and fit the breech plug as they should. The barrels have the proper Westley Richards markings and proofs for the time period. But I am wondering about the name on the rib being in written script and was wondering if anyone might know if they used a written script for a certain period instead of block letters. I suppose I could contact Westley Richards again but I told them about this when I sent away for the info but there was no comments about that. So just wondering if anyone else knows.

That is a beautiful and classy gun!

 

[muzzlecap]

Thanks guys. It is amazing how some of these guns are still going strong after 170 or more years. Speaks to the craftsmanship back then. I have a few other double barrels from the 1845-1865 era that are still in remarkable condition for their respective ages. One day I will have to pull them out and take some pics.

 

[Magungo1066]

I recently acquired this Westley Richards double barrel percussion gun. Typically you don't see a stock with the cheekpiece and rifle style trigger guard on a gun like this so I'm thinking a specila order back in the day. I sent away to Westley Richards for any information they may have had in their ledgers. The info came back the other day. From their ledger, it describes the gun as a double barrel 14 gauge percussion shotgun completed on August 6, 1849 for P. G. Van der Byl & Co. That's all the info I got. I tried to research the Van der Bly name but got nothing. Their ledger describes the gun as 14 gauge. I don't have a bore gauge but at the muzzles I get maybe a 16 gauge. So not sure why they have it as a 14gauge. Another oddity is that the name Westley Richards on the rib is in written script, not block letters like usually seen. The barrels, breech plugs, trigger guard and the locks all have the same serial number. The locks function perfectly and still fit nice and snug in the inletting. At first I thought maybe someone restocked it at some point with the style of stock it has. But the trigger guard has the serial number on it and the stock was inlet for this guard and lock plates. There is no indication that the stock was altered for the barrel wedge and no indication that the barrel lug was moved. The barrels are tight in the stock and fit the breech plug as they should. The barrels have the proper Westley Richards markings and proofs for the time period. But I am wondering about the name on the rib being in written script and was wondering if anyone might know if they used a written script for a certain period instead of block letters. I suppose I could contact Westley Richards again but I told them about this when I sent away for the info but there was no comments about that. So just wondering if anyone else knows.

I don't have any knowledge to contribute but that is an absolutely gorgeous shotgun!

 

[SOLANCO]

"Typically you don't see a stock with the cheekpiece and rifle style trigger guard on a gun like this so I'm thinking a specila order back in the day. "
The usual Westley Richards gun was custom built to an individual's, or firm's, specifications. Some "Best" guns were actually assembled by firms like Richards from sub assemblies contracted out to small specialist makers. Actioners, barrel makers, etc etc. This might account for the unusual markings on your barrels. And if a customer with the wherewithall to commission a bespoke gun from Westley Richards wanted his shotgun somewhat rifle styled? That is what he would get.
I imagine that if you could look at photos of all of the "Best" guns of that era you would find more than a few oddities.
I have a lovely Cape gun made by Sauer in Germany. But if you looked at the architecture and not the name on the metal you would swear it was British. Straight grip stock and no Gothic decoration.

 

[muzzlecap]

Yes, some guns can be deceiving going by looks alone. Wouldn't it be nice if every gun came with a timeline of it's history throughout the years

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

FWIW I just had a Belgian version of a similar ‘high end’ dbl-barreled percussion shotgun appraised and this info might be of help to you.

GAUGE - It indeed is a 14-ga shotgun, but the reason why you think it is a 16-ga is that because the barrels were choked over the last 4” of barrel.

In my case the Appraiser dropped a telescoping bore gauge deep down the barrel and we saw the gauge changed over the last 4”. Mine is a 10-gauge, but the end of the barrels look for all for the world like that of a 12-ga.

This barrel choking was only done in the last year‘s of the percussion shotgun era.

Another giveaway, at least with the one I have in my possession, is that it is a ‘heavy gun’, therefore it was built as a fowler for waterfowing. Unfortunately (for me), the bigger the gauge … the less the value in these perc shotguns.

MODEL - While a W-R it’s certainly a high-end shotgun, that is not the highest end of the W-R models, for 2 reasons. (1) Otherwise it would have what is called an “island” lock. That would have a perimeter of wood entirely around the lock plate, most prominently where the rear of the barrel breeches sit in the forend.

And (2) There would be a relief designed into the rear 5/8” or so of the lock plate to allow the taper to the wrist to begin faster, resulting in a highly tapered, thin and trim wrist as possible.

I will show all pictures of those 2 distinctive features later.

You certainly have a nice shotgun and I hope my information does not make you think that I am putting it down - not at all. Just to give you an idea, mine was appraised at only $400-$500 due to the gauge (and being Begian, lol!), and yet otherwise it is highly engraved all over. I thought it would be valued for more, but it was given to me as a gift, so I cannot complain.

Now if it was a W-R, I’d opine it would be worth up to 2-3X that, maybe more. And again, the smaller the bore/gauge, the more value with these.

 

[muzzlecap]

I don't think you are putting it down at all. I am happy to receive information. I thought about the bores being choked but I didn't think this was very often seen in a gun from the 1849 era. I don't have a bore gauge to check further down the bores. I will have to see if I can locate someone locally with a gauge. The gun as a whole is a light, fairly agile gun. I had someone tell me that the bar in wood locks (island locks) were a design change because the stock was fragile with no supporting wood above the lock plate. Later guns also had a silver plate inlet into the wood on each side in the breech area for added support. I believe trigger style was changed as well. However, yes I do believe there were fancier grades than mine at the time.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Here’s a picture showing the ‘island’ lock and the lockplate relief to the wrist.

 

[Rudyard]

This ' Island lock' must be some US term .. I know it as' Bar in wood' the silver bits are not for streangth but to stop the barrels digging into the wood ,While the normal lock had the plate to prevent such wear . If you place a 14 bore wad and it falls loose after 4 "whatever that should indicate its configuration ,Ide say it's a bit early for any choke idea but who knows . Actually 14 bore is smaller than 16 .The cheek piece isn't unknown on shotguns & the scroll guard even if a bit old fashioned isnt that remarkable . The Owners name suggests he was Dutch or perhaps Boer stock from South Africa & at the end of the day the customer is always right (Even if he is a blithering idiot .) Your appraiser might be a bit biased but in general Belgium guns are not held in the same esteem as English guns. but there where a lot of both sent to the US trading under old names or' knock offs' (To use the vulgar term ) So the prized ' William Moores' generally Arnt ,As a guide If this time it's me being a bit snobby . The English gun was thought best if light & handy while the US tastes seemed by examples surviving to be large bore heavy and with more drop to the stocks as if the idea was poke it over a hedge and bladder some hapless goose . Not carried all day . I was once shown a double pinfire by J. D .Dougal it had the pronounced drop and weighed a ton .Definatly Not suited to the English market tastes. But again the customer is always right . Big game rifles needed to be heavy but then you had the' Boy 'or your man servant to carry it till you needed it . & just hope he hadn't took flight or got stomped into the ground by an enraged Elephant . ( It's so hard to get good gun bearers these days )
Hmmmm '
Regards a Jockiler Rudyard

 

[muzzlecap]

Rudyard, don't you have that backwards regarding bore size? The ledger states that my gun is 14 gauge. I get 16 gauge at the muzzles. 14 gauge has a bore size of .693" and 16 gauge a bore size of .662"

 

[Eterry]

I have a book on fine English double guns and rifles. There is whole chapter devoted to WR. I'll dig it out and refresh my memory.
Congratulations on a great find.

 

[Rudyard]

Rudyard, don't you have that backwards regarding bore size? The ledger states that my gun is 14 gauge. I get 16 gauge at the muzzles. 14 gauge has a bore size of .693" and 16 gauge a bore size of .662"

Well then if I am in error & I am. the bore isn't chocked its reliefe bored opened up . The reverse of a constricting choke and your 16 bore wad will get tighter not looser that's what Ide expect . So how does your mention of choke come into it ? .Opened at the breach & then opening up at the muzzle was normal in well made guns in flint days but the muzzle releife continued into percussion & early BL days none being true even throughout cylinder bores .Other than muskets and perhaps cheaper offerings trade guns ect .

Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

My repley didnt go oddly?
.But if Ime in error & I am then a 16 bore wad will get tighter as you push it down not fall down .The barrels of flint guns where opened up a bit at the breach the opened up near the muzzle & this muzzle reliefe was retained in Percussion guns the very reverse of constricting 'chokes '.Only muskets and cheaper offering trade guns ect had cylinder bores through out by design . Maybe Felt wad would give us his views ?
'Regards Rudyard

 

[muzzlecap]

Why choke was implied in my earlier post is because if my gun is actually 14 gauge, that is what's stated in the ledger, then my muzzles are smaller than the indicated gauge, not opened up larger. No way to prove it, or ever know, but I wonder if the wrong gauge size was written down in the ledger back in the day. I was sent a copy of the particular ledger page, and every gun on the page is listed as 14 gauge and all entries are by the same hand writing. I just wonder if the person inadvertently marked down 14 gauge as opposed to what information was actually passed on. As I say, we'll never know.
I have another percussion double barrel that is marked on the barrels as 14 gauge. On it, I get the actual measurement at the muzzles of a 14 gauge, but not so with the Richards. And over all, the Richards appears to look and feel like a smaller gauge gun.
What I should maybe clarify, is that we are talking gauge size. Gauge size is also what is quoted in the ledger. As an example of that, a 20 gauge is smaller than a 12 gauge, thus my measurement of 16 gauge at the muzzles is smaller than the 14 gauge they indicated in the ledger, 16 gauge being smaller than a 14 gauge.
As I said earlier, I guess the way to know accurately is to find someone with a bore gauge.

 

[11Bravo]

I have two Westley's, one a percussion and the other a breach loader. I need a bore gauge as well for the muzzle loader as per W-R it was built in 1863 and as a 12 bore. Mine also measures like a 16ga. at the muzzle. Now the breach loader showed in the ledger as a 1870 built pin fire, yet it is CF and other ledger entries close to mine are marked CF . I have some doubts about how accurate the W-R records are? Also if that 12 bore was choked to 16 ga. that would be a extra super full choke in a 12ga. JMO

 

[muzzlecap]

Yes, I have heard from a couple of people now that said they wouldn't put much faith in the accuracy of the information in the ledgers, especially the further back one goes.

 

[pamtnman]

I recently acquired this Westley Richards double barrel percussion gun. Typically you don't see a stock with the cheekpiece and rifle style trigger guard on a gun like this so I'm thinking a specila order back in the day. I sent away to Westley Richards for any information they may have had in their ledgers. The info came back the other day. From their ledger, it describes the gun as a double barrel 14 gauge percussion shotgun completed on August 6, 1849 for P. G. Van der Byl & Co. That's all the info I got. I tried to research the Van der Bly name but got nothing. Their ledger describes the gun as 14 gauge. I don't have a bore gauge but at the muzzles I get maybe a 16 gauge. So not sure why they have it as a 14gauge. Another oddity is that the name Westley Richards on the rib is in written script, not block letters like usually seen. The barrels, breech plugs, trigger guard and the locks all have the same serial number. The locks function perfectly and still fit nice and snug in the inletting. At first I thought maybe someone restocked it at some point with the style of stock it has. But the trigger guard has the serial number on it and the stock was inlet for this guard and lock plates. There is no indication that the stock was altered for the barrel wedge and no indication that the barrel lug was moved. The barrels are tight in the stock and fit the breech plug as they should. The barrels have the proper Westley Richards markings and proofs for the time period. But I am wondering about the name on the rib being in written script and was wondering if anyone might know if they used a written script for a certain period instead of block letters. I suppose I could contact Westley Richards again but I told them about this when I sent away for the info but there was no comments about that. So just wondering if anyone else knows.

Ummmm wow, niiiice gun. WTG

 

[muzzlecap]

11 Bravo, regarding you breech loader, is it possible it is a pinfire that has been converted to centerfire? That was done to a lot of pinfire guns.
As this is a muzzleloading forum, any further discussion regarding the breech loader I guess should be done through private messages.